Taking My Own Path

[InbetweenDreams]

This is probably going to be in a few parts.

So a little background info. I didn't really grow up Christian, nor did I go to church. I've been invited to church on a few occasions and went once and didn't like it. I don't want to make this a thread bashing Christians but to summarize, I don't agree with what I have observed. It's not so much the religion or practices, people just ruin it just as some Pagans ruin it because everyone wants to be right that their path is the right path.

Between being busy and just not having my shit together I never really focused on religion or spirituality. I just had thoughts and ideas about things, not much less than I have now. I do think it is necessary to reconcile what you believe and it should reflect who you are, what you stand for, your morals and what makes sense to you. For instance, I don't believe that God, or whatever you want to call it-- the universe if you will, is a transcendent being or something very concrete. It would seem that if there is such a God it is something more abstract and more of a permeating being or phenomena; it isn't a old bearded guy in a white robe up in the clouds. I feel that there is a good distance between what we are as human beings and what God is, or perhaps Gods and Goddesses. I really don't know. I'm not questioning the existance of a God(s) or Goddess(es) or whether deity is something that may not be definable. What do I mean by definable? Consider yourself being asked what color is by a blind person. How would you explain the color red? Sure you can describe it. What's to say that your experience of observing the color red is the same as mine? What if your red is my green? After all we will probably all agree that a rose is red. In other words if we can't experience something because we lack the facilities to observe it how do you know its there, how do you know its not. I understand that faith is not withstanding the question or rather not to question, but I just don't like just agreeing that something is real because I might go to hell. That's the other thing I really despise is the dogma of Abrahamic religions. If you don't buy what we're selling you're damned. 

That is what has attracted me to Paganism. For those of you who may not be familiar, Paganism is a broad definition to anything that isn't Abrahamic, for many that means Wiccan. I am not a Wiccan, nor have I yet adopted any particular Pagan Tradition. I am only exploring it and trying to figure out if that is something that will work for me. I also had a friend tell me a little about Hermeticism, specifically The Kybalion, but it doesn't sit well with me. While I've not read up too much on the subject but one of the principals suggest there is no such thing as chance which I don't agree with. 

Anyway, getting back to Paganism. I do like how nature is at the core of most traditions, Pagan holidays often fall on or near the solstices or the equinoxes, celebrating the harvest, etc. That to me makes sense. I don't know about any specific rituals, but the general idea makes sense. 

I'll talk more about it once I get some more time to. But that should be more than enough to get the ball rolling.

[marshlander]

Just responding to help some conversation along. I was raised in a quasi-Christian cult and it took me decades to recover. I'm not sure that I'll ever fully get over the resulting damage, but I've worked hard to become the man I was born to be rather than pretending to conform to someone else's idea. When you grow up hearing every week during your teen years that no one is born "homosexual", but people who claim to be gay are damned for being who they are or that if parents discover their child is attracted to someone of the same sex they should tie a rock round his/her neck and throw them in the lake ... well you get the idea.

I do find the idea of different life philosophies interesting, but not enough these days to join another gang. In my job I have performed in many places of worship over the decades and at a couple of pagan festivals more recently, but not because I belong to any branch of belief. If there is such a being as a deity, it/he/she has a lot of explaining to do. Gods in general seem to have been created to reinforce the prevailing cultural systems of control of the societies that invented them and as for "God" ... I'm unlikely to be aligning myself with any such psychotic, homicidal, egotistical, petulant being and if any such creature appeared and demanded I fall at "his" feet in worship I would fight him with every fibre of my being.

Apart from that, I'm usually pretty easy going and am not averse to seeing some benefit in a spiritual side of life. For me this is informed by that which may presently be unexplained, but is just as likely to be the result of creative thinking and quiet contemplation.

[TwisttheLeaf]

I think that it's great that you're finding your own path InBetweenDreams. I was raised primarily Wiccan (although my father was Buddhist) and have extremely limited experience with Christianity and their beliefs on the whole. That said, once I had moved out of my parent's home, I shifted my focus from Wicca and removed the deity aspect as it was something that I never connected with. I would now be considered a Pagan with Buddhist influences.

I think it's important that we find what fits for us. Divinity comes in so many different forms and not just in the form of deity. Some people connect differently than others, but I've found forcing people into boxes just doesn't assist with that connection at all.

[InbetweenDreams]

Just responding to help some conversation along. I was raised in a quasi-Christian cult and it took me decades to recover. I'm not sure that I'll ever fully get over the resulting damage, but I've worked hard to become the man I was born to be rather than pretending to conform to someone else's idea. When you grow up hearing every week during your teen years that no one is born "homosexual", but people who claim to be gay are damned for being who they are or that if parents discover their child is attracted to someone of the same sex they should tie a rock round his/her neck and throw them in the lake ... well you get the idea.

I do find the idea of different life philosophies interesting, but not enough these days to join another gang. In my job I have performed in many places of worship over the decades and at a couple of pagan festivals more recently, but not because I belong to any branch of belief. If there is such a being as a deity, it/he/she has a lot of explaining to do. Gods in general seem to have been created to reinforce the prevailing cultural systems of control of the societies that invented them and as for "God" ... I'm unlikely to be aligning myself with any such psychotic, homicidal, egotistical, petulant being and if any such creature appeared and demanded I fall at "his" feet in worship I would fight him with every fibre of my being.

Apart from that, I'm usually pretty easy going and am not averse to seeing some benefit in a spiritual side of life. For me this is informed by that which may presently be unexplained, but is just as likely to be the result of creative thinking and quiet contemplation.

I honestly feel like most churches are cults. I guess there are just some decent people who aren't like that but here in the southern US it is insane. It's been an eyeopener with the social distancing and such because a lot of churches post their services on social media. 

I don't get what the obsession that some Christians have with being gay. More people cheat on their spouse and steal shit than there are gay people. Ultimately it is why people are slowly turning away from organized religions in general. 

Paganism, as it was put in the book I read, is like a buffet, you have to get up and serve yourself. There are principles, but you don't have to believe in deity at all. You can pick and choose what works for you.

I think that it's great that you're finding your own path InBetweenDreams.  I was raised primarily Wiccan (although my father was Buddhist) and have extremely limited experience with Christianity and their beliefs on the whole.  That said, once I had moved out of my parent's home, I shifted my focus from Wicca and removed the deity aspect as it was something that I never connected with.    I would now be considered a Pagan with Buddhist influences.

I think it's important that we find what fits for us.  Divinity comes in so many different forms and not just in the form of deity.  Some people connect differently than others, but I've found forcing people into boxes just doesn't assist with that connection at all.

The only experience I have had with Wicca was when I was a teenager, my mom and my sister kind of got into it....I don't think they took it all the seriously and a lot of the concepts were over my head and I honestly thought it was silly. This was back when Charmed was on TV, I honestly think they thought being Wicca was going to be like Charmed or whatever. 

For me, I think a lot of this is stemmed from the whole "Satanic Panic" and being told you'll go to hell and blah blah blah...pray the gay away horseshit. As Marsh pointed out it works on you. Am I making the right choices? What if I am wrong and they're right? You know I had someone tell me that I ought to have faith in Christ anyway because if they have it wrong nothing will happen but if they do I'll go to hell. That's the logic people have, just do it anyway and make sure you tithe...did you tithe yet? 

I feel that it is important to come to peace with this. I think it is important to know what happens after death. Does it all go dark? Will I come back as a cow? Do I go into another realm? You hear about the near death experiences and I don't doubt that people are being truthful, but is that what is actually happening? Or is it just an encore before it all goes dark and you as in your consciousness ceases to be. These are, basic concepts, basic questions but no one, no one has the answers, not really. So of the people who have found peace in all this, what is it? How do they become comfortable that with every tick of the clock the closer to the end of the road you come. That has been a major road block for me.

[TwisttheLeaf]

Yeah.. Real Wicca is nothing like Charmed. LOL I imagine that a lot of people may have that assumption tho as it's one of the only mainstream looks into even a portion of what that faith might be like.

I've personally always believed in reincarnation. And honestly? After my own NDE, I've not changed my mind on this. Granted, I did not see a glowing bright light to follow or dead relatives or anyone there to greet me. I just felt a very comforting, all encompassing darkness wrap around me like a swaddle. It felt good and it felt peaceful and... perfect. And then the paramedics managed to resuscitate me back into chaos.

I guess I personally see life a lot like I see nature and energy as a whole. Energy evolves, transforms, redistributes, changes... but doesn't expire. A tree grows from the decay that creates nutrients in the soil for it to eat. It grows strong, surviving on the product of decay from what came before. Some day it will fall, and it will become the decay, and something else will use the energy of that decay to grow in its place. My view of things, anyway.

[InbetweenDreams]

Yeah.. Real Wicca is nothing like Charmed.  LOL  I imagine that a lot of people may have that assumption tho as it's one of the only mainstream looks into even a portion of what that faith might be like.

I've personally always believed in reincarnation.  And honestly?  After my own NDE, I've not changed my mind on this.  Granted, I did not see a glowing bright light to follow or dead relatives or anyone there to greet me.  I just felt a very comforting, all encompassing darkness wrap around me like a swaddle.  It felt good and it felt peaceful and... perfect.    And then the paramedics managed to resuscitate me back into chaos. 

I guess I personally see life a lot like I see nature and energy as a whole.  Energy evolves, transforms, redistributes, changes... but doesn't expire.  A tree grows from the decay that creates nutrients in the soil for it to eat.  It grows strong, surviving on the product of decay from what came before.  Some day it will fall, and it will become the decay, and something else will use the energy of that decay to grow in its place.  My view of things, anyway.

Yeah the mainstream view of...anything is watered down. Supposedly some of the rituals in Wicca are close to being a carbon copy of some Masonic rituals? I don't know if that's true or not. I've been listening to some podcasts from Bernard Alvarez, some of his shows are really good and speak to me, some of it I feel a bit skeptical about. 

On the subject of death and reincarnation. What do you think happens to consciousness following death? I've read several theories that sort of hint what happens. That we're part of a collective consciousness, I think -- If I can recall. It was something to that effect.

[marshlander]

On the subject of death and reincarnation. What do you think happens to consciousness following death? I've read several theories that sort of hint what happens. That we're part of a collective consciousness, I think -- If I can recall. It was something to that effect.

Until I see some evidence to the contrary I am at peace with the notion that when the lights go out for the last time, that's it.

[InbetweenDreams]

On the subject of death and reincarnation. What do you think happens to consciousness following death? I've read several theories that sort of hint what happens. That we're part of a collective consciousness, I think -- If I can recall. It was something to that effect.

Until I see some evidence to the contrary I am at peace with the notion that when the lights go out for the last time, that's it.

I'm not at peace with that!   Perhaps that's the problem. How one becomes at peace with whatever, whether the lights go out or I'm coming back as a cow is the problem. I'm not at peace with the unknown.

[marshlander]

I'm not at peace with that!   Perhaps that's the problem. How one becomes at peace with whatever, whether the lights go out or I'm coming back as a cow is the problem. I'm not at peace with the unknown.

So ... what can one do to resolve the “problem”? I suppose one might sit on the fence until one starves or falls off, but in the meantime the world carries on and most people won’t be concerned about what worries you. I spend a lot of my time campaigning on human rights and environmental issues and, to be honest, most people don’t really care about those either. They have enough of their own problems just dodging the stuff life throws at them.

Organised belief systems, whether they are manifest in something akin to the traditional Abrahamic faiths or, on another path, a political party are machines of varying degrees of sophistication for encouraging people to donate money, bolster the powerful or give their time to expanding the troops on the ground to do even more of those things. You don’t need those to make you into a good person, however you define that!

It sounds as though you are happy to explore what is important for you in your life and that sounds like a journey to me. Don’t forget to gaze at the scenery as you pass it by. There’s a lot of beauty out there. You’re going to reach the destination whatever else you do or don’t do. Worrying only serves the interests of other people who want us to think there’s something to worry about. I’m sure my Zen friends have a better way of explaining this!

[InbetweenDreams]

I'm not at peace with that!   Perhaps that's the problem. How one becomes at peace with whatever, whether the lights go out or I'm coming back as a cow is the problem. I'm not at peace with the unknown.

So ... what can one do to resolve the “problem”? I suppose one might sit on the fence until one starves or falls off, but in the meantime the world carries on and most people won’t be concerned about what worries you. I spend a lot of my time campaigning on human rights and environmental issues and, to be honest, most people don’t really care about those either. They have enough of their own problems just dodging the stuff life throws at them.

Organised belief systems, whether they are manifest in something akin to the traditional Abrahamic faiths or, on another path, a political party are machines of varying degrees of sophistication for encouraging people to donate money, bolster the powerful or give their time to expanding the troops on the ground to do even more of those things. You don’t need those to make you into a good person, however you define that!

It sounds as though you are happy to explore what is important for you in your life and that sounds like a journey to me. Don’t forget to gaze at the scenery as you pass it by. There’s a lot of beauty out there. You’re going to reach the destination whatever else you do or don’t do. Worrying only serves the interests of other people who want us to think there’s something to worry about. I’m sure my Zen friends have a better way of explaining this!

Without going to far off path I do have issues with anxiety. I don't take medication for it as I haven't had very good experiences, either they don't do anything or cause more problems than just dealing with anxiety itself. Perhaps that's the real underlying issue I have. I tend to worry and stress over shit that is far beyond my control. I could go on about all those things for quite a while. Anyway, sometimes I do a good job at dealing with anxieties and other times not so well.

Getting back on topic... One way, perhaps, I should think of my earliest memories. At what point did I become "me?" We don't remember being born or learning how to walk or talk. It is as if consciousness is like tuning in a TV station (think analog), it just drifts in I suppose. In other words I don't remember the origin of my own consciousness. It isn't as if one day boom. I do remember when my inner "voice" emerged, if that makes sense. 

I don't think it is so much the thought of death is what bothers me, it is not knowing what happens to "us" when we pass away. Of course, knowing or not, it doesn't change anything. Just as worrying about whether I'll get COVID-19 at some point will change the outcome. I hope I don't of course. Somewhere I heard that 85% of what we worry about doesn't happen anyway.


The other side of the all this is simply curiosity, to better understand how the universe works, why it works and what we're actually all a part of. Why are we here? Is this a test? Is it the experience of life? Are we here to learn something? Is this like Groundhog Day? Do you keep reincarnating until you get it right? 


At any rate I do like hearing what people think, what they believe and why.