Why America makes me angry sometimes

[fredv3b]

Hmm, this isn't meant to be overly rude, but I can understand some people not agreeing.

Puppy I am envious of your youth, optimism and enthusiasm, we need more of it, so please don't let me quench that with my cynicism. However.....

I am so proud and thankful that there are young LGBTQ people out there. The older ones seem to be just happy with the way things are. They are use to it and don't feel like getting up and doing something about it. I find that wrong.

First have a little respect for your gay elders. They way we are treated now is nothing compared to they way they were when they were young, and they were responsible for a lot of that change. I am sure its true that some are just thankful for how much has changed, but also many are committed to full equality. As one ages, issues like marriage, health insurance, hospital visitation rights, inheritance, etc. become more important.

I've had talks with quite a bit of people that thought the march @ DC was unnecessary. I was there. I was there from 9 am till I don't even remember when. I came from Pennsylvania with my boyfriend just for the march, and I was so glad that I did.

Why are you glad that you did? What did it achieve? There is a cost to every action, the opportunity cost, what could you have done instead if you didn't do that action. How much did that march cost to organise, how much did everyone attending spend getting there? At the same time as that march there was a heated campaign in Maine over gay marriage, if all that money, time and effort had been spent in Maine might we have won? That would have two things, first marriage equality for gay couples in Maine, second it would have disproved the claim that gay marriage was just being enforced by 'activist judges' as the law had originally been freely passed by the the state legislature and was then endorsed by a majority of voters.

I don't know if victory could have been achieved in Maine, my point is that we need to consider our actions carefully, as just perhaps that march might have cost us a major victory, and many that were against it reasons other than they could not be bothered.

Something needs to be done. Like seriously.

Absolutely, but that does not mean we should do anything, just because it is something.

The government is the problem, the elder are the obstacle, but the youth is definitely the solution.

I disagree, the government is not ultimately, the problem, the people are. In a democracy the people are ultimately responsible for the state of the nation. As soon as politicians think that there are more votes for them in supporting equality than opposing it then they will support for it I guarantee you, and if they don't then they will be defeated by candidates who will.

The problem is that real gay equality is not really supported by the American public yet. Many may, honestly, claim they are in favour of it in general principle, however when it comes to real specific issues they are not, e.g. they only want their daughter told at school that when she grows up she can marry a boy, not another girl, they don't want their church being forced to recognise gay married couples as married when that church is acting beyond its house of worship and running schools, hospitals, etc. Others may genuinely support full gay equality but just don't care enough for it to swing their vote compared to other issues, the economy, taxes, national defence, etc. Bottom line - Too few straight Americans support gay equality strongly enough.

You are right that older people are an obstacle, they support gay equality far less than the young. However they out-number the young and out-vote them (they are far more likely to turn up and vote). Short of just waiting for them to die we need to persuade them. Some we may get to actively vote for it, other we may get to not actively vote against it.

It's not like it's something hard to do. Start simple, Post on your Social Network that you are holding a LGBTq/Straight Alliance meeting at your house. It doesn't have to be anything serious all the time. It can be just as simple as having some gay people and some straight people that have never met each other playing Wii or PS3 together. How hard is that? Really?

Not a bad idea. However those that would turn up would, generally, be young and pretty gay-friendly already. We need to do things to reach out further than that, however I think you have hit on an important point about getting to know people. Its a lot easier to discriminate against 'that gay couple' who live down the street than it is to discriminate against Dallas and Corey who live down the street.

Please, feel free to disagree.

[marshlander]

Hmm, this isn't meant to be overly rude, but I can understand some people not agreeing.

I am so proud and thankful that there are young LGBTQ people out there. The older ones seem to be just happy with the way things are. They are use to it and don't feel like getting up and doing something about it. ... The government is the problem, the elder are the obstacle, but the youth is definitely the solution...

I am delighted to see a young activist at work here. It is wonderful to know the torch can be handed on safely to the next generation. My experience in the UK is a little different from yours. The people I meet on demos and marches are from a broad age range, but I am always disappointed by the small number of younger people who seem to be there for the actual cause. So few of our GLBT youth seem to know very much GLBT history or what is going on in the world outside their own bathrooms. I am saddened by the complacency of the number of young people for whom, for example, gay pride = a big outdoor party and very little else.

Don't be too hard on us oldies. Some people have been through hell in their lifetimes and the changes over the last few years are quite remarkable. You can't blame us for being happy to see them take effect. Some people have actually given their lives to get to the situation in which we presently find ourselves. I stood in silent vigil among thousands of people in London a couple of weeks ago as we were solemnly reminded of thirty people who had been killed during the last ten years in homophobic attacks in Britain. We may have made progress, but we still have a way to go. It is important for us all to remember that what we have won can also easily be lost and I realise we are not all as fortunate, specially in some parts of the world. I would not like to see a return to the bad old days in the UK when I could not mention anything in schools about being gay, did not have the choice to have my relationship recognised officially, could be discriminated against just because I am gay or of again going through the scary experience of being set up in a police entrapment sting, or of having the pub where I had gone for a quiet drink and a chat with like-minded friends was smashed up up in a police raid.

Attitudes may have changed, but in Britain the government has been at the front of many of those changes. With a fairer legal framework in place people's attitudes are slowly changing also. Homophobic attitudes are being squeezed into smaller places by the carrot and stick of the law and the people. My personal journey to being the out gay man I am has been a long and sometimes painful one. Others have had and continue to have it much worse and I am glad to have opportunities to continue to march, demonstrate, protest and support the pursuit of fairness for our less fortunate brothers and sisters.

Well done, YoungPup. Keep stirring!

[joseph]

i wont to help about gay peple and that and peple being nasty to gay peple .like when it aboit asilem and i helped. how do you.

[marshlander]

Puppy I am envious of your youth, optimism and enthusiasm, we need more of it, so please don't let me quench that with my cynicism. However....
Please, feel free to disagree.

I knew you would have a different and very thoughtful take on this discussion, Fred. I love your optimism that we might even be able to organise and target our actions in the most effective ways. I'd like to think you were right. Governments rely on our inability to organise.

[fredv3b]

I love your optimism that we might even be able to organise and target our actions in the most effective ways.

If our opponents are organised they we need to be too, if they can do it, we can too. But you are right that I am rather optimistic. Sometimes I think it would be better if there really were a secret 'gay agenda'.

[marshlander]

i wont to help about gay peple and that and peple being nasty to gay peple .like when it aboit asilem and i helped. how do you.

I think Fred and YoungPup are on to something when they suggest that we try and make a difference where we live. If people know and respect us in real life we can hope they may think twice before they say something nasty. Be nice to others, Joseph, and say "No" when they are horrible. Don't let your worker tell you that you're not gay. You know you are and they need to understand that it is important to you that they know it too.

[marshlander]

If our opponents are organised they we need to be to, if they can do it, we can too. But you are right that I am rather optimistic. Sometimes I think it would be better if there really were a secret 'gay agenda'.

You're right, but for them a homophobic stance is something they have reduced to a single issue and that they can target in their spare time while for us it's called "getting on with life". The 'phobes are far more concerned with my sex life than I am. Conversely they seem to have a bit of a blind and deaf spot to all the other things that go to make a strong and happy relationship. Which bit of being gay do I want to pick up as a single campaign issue? :confused:

[princealbertofb]

Bravo Joseph, Bravo Fred, Bravo YoungPup and Bravo Darling.... I'm pleased to see that you are all, in your way, trying to contribute to a better understanding of who gay people really are, ie not really that different from who other people are.
Today I received an e-mail from my mother with a piece of news about Florida and the right of gay couples to adopt. I think I'll post it in the news section. Please read.

[fredv3b]

Not sure if this should be a new thread or not....

Some of you may have heard that Proposition 8, the amendment to the California State Constitution that banned gay marriage is under challenge in the in the US Federal Courts, in a case that is likely to go to the Supreme Court of the United States. Many prominent fay rights advocates were against such a case, fearing the consequences if it were lost, on the other hand the two lawyers at the head are some of the 'biggest cheeses' within the American bar. Here is a very good article reviewing the case.

[Rychard the Lionheart]

Youngpup, you are not alone.

I like to think of myself being a member of the new young gay upsurge in America that is sick of being patient and ready for change now rather than later. - Libertylove4.

Both of you are keen to see changes to the way people see and act towards gay people. I understand your frustrations, it will happen but it will take time.

Pennsylvania has 14 municipalities which have civil rights laws including protections based on sexual orientation and gender identity or expression. Why not get involved in helping to add Brookville, Jefferson County and Pennsylvania (HB 300) to the list. Getting every town, city and state to have fair anti-discrimations laws is just one thing which can be achieved.

How can we help from this side of the pond? Any suggestions?

As Fred said we need to be organised, they have already won California and Maine. It is a war we are fighting, some battles you lose others you win, but the war will go on until we have justice.

Sorry folks, Im ranting again