Nature vs Nurture - Born gay or turned gay?

[Daniel6]

I was openly gay 100% when I donated my sperm (and not in a test tube...I did it the old fashioned way) and produced TWO daughters. Remember...nature finds a way.

[peterinmalaga]

The concept of nature is a human invention. It isn't natural, if you see what I mean. So the whole debate is contrived. The point for me is that the arguments are really only important to people who wish to control other people - religious leaders, politicians etc. Why should we care if our sexual preference is natural or not?

[Tim]

I don't think that ever during our existence on this planet that any single human ever woke up one day and decided that he or she was going to be gay or straight.

In regards to the nurture debate, I believe you are either nurtured to be honest with yourself and society or you are not, and that is the extent of it.

In regards to the nature debate. I'm sorry, but long ago science told us the earth was flat, and if you denied it you were a heretic. Today it is no different in the scientific community, you have to go along with what is p.c. and accepted or you are shunned and mocked. I believe in honest, pure science, something I believe we rarely achieve.

I don't believe that food, medicine or prenatal care veered me away from a "natural" course of being straight. I find that science offensive as it makes me out to be less of a person, defective.

How about a theory that nature doesn't need everyone to procreate? How about a science that understands balance and nature's need to control population? How about a theory that nature knows not all that procreate will live or be suitable parents and a "buffer" is created to help fill those gaps?

Finally, where in science are they comparing an infertile man to a gay man? In terms of nature's purpose in being born, what's the difference between these two? Neither of us are creating babies, but still an infertile man is considered normal. Why? Perhaps the infertile straight man is really a defective gay man who just never got finished? :biggrin:

[ardus]

Perhaps the infertile straight man is really a defective gay man who just never got finished? :biggrin:

I like that one Tim.
And now for my 2 cents
If any human being is an advertisement for sexuality being determined by biology it is me. My parents are hyper-religioius, my whole family is the same way, and I was raised to believe that gay was evil and sinful and an abomination in the sight of God and all that. And yet here I am.

I know who I am, and I am not a product of environment, or unwholsome food, or strange chemicals, or radiation, or bad vaccines or any other silly theory that people come up with to "explain" why people are what they are.

I'm a man who likes both men and women, and it runs all the way to the core of me, it's not superficial and it didn't develop. I've had thoughts about both sexes since I can remember, I used to play sex games with both boys and girls when I was a kid, and when I matured and learned what sex was I was attracted to both, but I didn't learn to accept myself until I was in my early 20's. Even after I realized what was and acted on it consciously I still had several years of struggling to overcome the conditioning against it that I had received my whole life. Now I accept myself as who I am, and I KNOW I was born this way.
Richard

[Tim]

Richard, I think we have a lot in common family-wise! I don't know if you grew up in Clarksville, or if it is the Clarksville, Tennessee that I'm thinking of, but if so, we both had similar midwestern mindsets all around us.

I hate to admit it, but sometimes I simply forget it's not always black and white, straight and gay. I apologize if I ever do in conversation.

Just curious, and probably out of this conversation thread, but do you think it would be easier if you had been born being strictly gay? I know you can't compare experiences, but I get the impression bisexual people may be ridiculed more for "not making up their minds." (I don't agree at all with that mentality.)

[peterinmalaga]

Finally, where in science are they comparing an infertile man to a gay man? In terms of nature's purpose in being born, what's the difference between these two? Neither of us are creating babies, but still an infertile man is considered normal. Why? Perhaps the infertile straight man is really a defective gay man who just never got finished? :biggrin:

Nature is a human invention, a notion we have dreamed up to help us understand and talk about our situation. Nature does not exist therefore: it's just an idea in our minds. For that reason, amongst others, Nature can have no purpose. The good news is that makes all human beings equally worthwhile. The bad news is that it makes us all equally worthless. The human race will die out eventually and there'll be nobody left to give a shit! Unless ET is watching us.

[russiantwink]

I wont read the previous posts but will try and provide evidence to the statement that homosexuality might me in our genes.
David Featherstone proved in his experiments with fruit flies that homosexuality can be caused by altering genes or by use of drugs.
Bailey and Pillard experiments on twins have shown that 52% of identical twins of homosexual men were homosexual and 48% of identical twins of homosexual women were likewise homosexual.
Conclusion: Homosexuality can be something you are born with even though it is possible that in other cases ones homosexuality can be caused by the environment.

[ardus]

Richard, I think we have a lot in common family-wise! I don't know if you grew up in Clarksville, or if it is the Clarksville, Tennessee that I'm thinking of, but if so, we both had similar midwestern mindsets all around us.

I hate to admit it, but sometimes I simply forget it's not always black and white, straight and gay. I apologize if I ever do in conversation.

Just curious, and probably out of this conversation thread, but do you think it would be easier if you had been born being strictly gay? I know you can't compare experiences, but I get the impression bisexual people may be ridiculed more for "not making up their minds." (I don't agree at all with that mentality.)

No I didn't grow up here, I am stationed here, I grew up in Utah.
I don't know if it would have been easier to be gay rather than bi, but I can attest to the fact that sometimes bi people are considered to have not fully comitted to being gay or not made up our minds, etc. My philosophy on people who think that is very simple though, if they don't want to treat me decent then they can go stuff themselves, its their loss not mine.
Richard

[Tim]

Nature is a human invention, a notion we have dreamed up to help us understand and talk about our situation. Nature does not exist therefore: it's just an idea in our minds. For that reason, amongst others, Nature can have no purpose. The good news is that makes all human beings equally worthwhile. The bad news is that it makes us all equally worthless. The human race will die out eventually and there'll be nobody left to give a shit! Unless ET is watching us.

I guess I would disagree. Isn't nature just an order to things? Although it sometimes seems like it, we do not live in chaos. PI and the Golden Ratio are two universal examples I'd put forth.

All of this has happened before and all of it will happen again.

Tim

[fredv3b]

Pi is a ratio of perfect circles, a rare occurrence unless drawn by man. The golden ratio is the ratio of rectangles that are considered by man to be perfect.

More seriously, I agree with Peter, nature is just the way things are without the interference of man, it has no purpose. Purpose is something that only people, as reasoning beings, can have.