Nature vs Nurture - Born gay or turned gay?

[Tim]

Pi is a ratio of perfect circles, a rare occurrence unless drawn by man. The golden ratio is the ratio of rectangles that are considered by man to be perfect.

It's interesting it just occurred to me that I probably had similar thoughts twenty plus years ago until a friend of mine, who now works at JPL, convinced me otherwise. I'd completely forgotten about that until this conversation. I know he'd have pages to write in response about PI, but I'm not the mathematician, so I'll just leave it with what I said.

More seriously, I agree with Peter, nature is just the way things are without the interference of man, it has no purpose. Purpose is something that only people, as reasoning beings, can have.

I would agree with that statement, that nature exists but has no purpose or goal. However, he said 'nature does not exist therefore, it's just an idea in our minds.' That was my disagreement.

[Ultra]

I believe you're born with it. My ex used to think so as well and he was pretty confident with that. There were times where he thought he turned gay, because of some music he might have listened to when he was younger and some other things. I can't really say too much on this, pretty personal. I don't know how he thinks that him being gay was phase. It just doesn't compute.

[Aaycle]

Great arguments guys, I soaked (most) it all in!! I LMAO, from the absurdity of few of them. However, the argument is Nature vs. Nurture; and we seem to equate that merely with homosexuality, or bisexuality. I have embarked on a study that tries to explain every diverse and complicated spectrum of human sexuality; which includes:

Ephebophilia : The sexual preference of some adults for adolescent teens.

Nepiophilia: The sexual preference for babies and toddlers 0-4/5 years.

Objectophilia/Object-Sexuality: The sexual preference for inanimate objects, or any object
for that matter.
Homosexual: The sexual preference for men only.

Necrophilia: The sexual preference for the dead (I don't know if this is the recently dead, or the dead of long ago). However, specified, it is legitimate.

Bestiality: The sexual preference for animals.

Bi-sexuality: The sexual preference for both male and female (humans, that is).

Therefore, when it comes to Nature vs. Nature, all of these subdivisions must be considered thoroughly before deciding the complex reason as to why anyone is gay, straight, or otherwise. As for the Nature vs Nurture theory towards homosexuality, Dr. Money a reknowned Psychiatrist, did a study on male twins. Apparently, one of the twins had been irreparably excised as a baby. The parents were advised to raise this particular child as a girl (which they did). As, this child grew up she rebelled against being a girl. She wanted nothing to do with Barbie, girls clothes, feminine conditioning, and later make-up and estrogen pills. This child (many times) tried to commit suicide. It was only after the parents realized that their child's life was in peril, did they tell her that she was actually a him. Upon, finding this out, the child's wish was to be the boy he was born to be. After this decision, the child began to have a semblance of normalcy in his life, however by this time (psychologically) he was beyond help. He tried dating, then marriage, but could never have children of his own. Eventually, life had become hopeless, and he became successful at suicide. Dr. Money, wrote several books fabricating the nurtured success of these twins life, that today is still at the forefront of the Nature vs. Nurture debate.

But the reality, of the matter is, it was not a success, you cannot nurture sexuality, it is beyond the doubt biology's choice as to who or WHAT, we are attracted to. The trauma of these twins lives from this irresponsible decision (to raise one as a girl), ultimately led to both twins death at their own hands.Truly sad!!!

In wrapping up, when we enter this debate, please remember the man who loves his coffee maker (not for its technical function), or the woman who appreciates her Doberman Pinscher (not for his protective capability), or the School teacher who loves little boys (not for their learning ability), because these people too belong to this debate, even more so than a homosexual, or a bisexual, because we know so little of their debate.

And, if you did not get my stance from this long ramble, I am a homosexual male, that was born, that way. And, it is a beautiful, soulful, and creative way to be.

[fenris]

[B][B]And, it is a beautiful, soulful, and creative way to be.

A M E N
Namasté

[Student]

[B][COLOR=#8b0000]In wrapping up, when we enter this debate, please remember the man who loves his coffee maker (not for its technical function), or the woman who appreciates her Doberman Pinscher (not for his protective capability), or the School teacher who loves little boys (not for their learning ability), because these people too belong to this debate, even more so than a homosexual, or a bisexual, because we know so little of their debate.

And, if you did not get my stance from this long ramble, I am a homosexual male, that was born, that way. And, it is a beautiful, soulful, and creative way to be.

I hear what you're saying but I think that sexuality is probably contributed to by both factors. I still think it wasn't my choice, I don't think I was taught to be gay or chose to be gay, I just think there must be factors in my upbringing that have had an influence on my sexuality. Nothing that I could directly give reference to, but little things that you wouldn't notice - nothing quite so freudian as the absentee father, for instance.

I also think that whilst people who have attraction to young children may not be able to control the feelings that they have, that they a very much wrong to act on them - I'm sure you and most people would agree on this. If you can consent to sexual activity though it's fine. But the same would be said of beastiality. I remember hearing a story about how a guy had caused trauma to a horse and the horse was stumbling around the field in terrible distress. Now a coffee-maker doesn't really have the ability to give consent, so I guess that one's fine. :tongue:

I just think it's important to remember that feelings have to be reciprocated and intentions clearly understood when two people engage in sexual activity. It must be a terrible affliction to be a paedophile, I can't possibly begin to imagine what they must go through. It's a very difficult subject because you would persuade them to do whatever they can to try and find people of an appropriate age to be with, but it's something that's obviously out of their control and it's quite easy to draw a parallel with people telling gay people to date women, or even more closely in my case, to date people my own age (I'm attracted to much older guys). It's an awful thing that people have to deal with this, but unless both parties are consenting, then any sexual contact is wrong because it becomes abuse.

[Sil]

I don't know the science surrounding this argument only the principle.

I would say I was probably turned, but also succeptible to a very typical middle-class programming growing up. I never experienced divorce or trauma (and am thankful) so I recieved a happy and mundane upbringing that led me to monogamy, girls, marriage ideology.

This all messed up when I fell madly in love with one of my friends, the typical teenage puppy love. But it was much more heartfelt then any girls I'd been with or thought were nice, so that was a turning point.

I'd be open to the fact I was lying to myself before that point, but I'd honestly say I felt more like I turned gay than was born that way?

[pukkap]

I don't feel the issue is whether homosexuality is nature or nurture (there are over 400 species of animals that have shown documented homosexual behaviour including fruit flies) but whether sexuality is innate!

The crazy fucked up Christian far right want sexuality to be a choice (which it can never be - in the same way that a left handed person cant pretend to be right handed forever).

Its important to show that there are biological reasons for homosexuality but these may be a combination of nature and nurture. mile:

[Aaycle]

Thank you fenris, lol. What an honour to have such Royalty bow to a servant like me!!

Oh Student, you are very comical, lol. So it's okay to Luuv, your Coffee Pot?

Well Umm, I can see why so many people believe that the very strong nurturing component of life is so effective. We are ALL, susceptible to being conditioned, I know; that is how some of us become racist, indoctrinated into a particular Religion, or intolerable to certain social values. But can one truly be conditioned to sexuality? A Pedophile, may stand behind the argument of conditioning, and he may have a valid argument, but it is very flawed! As it would set the precedent that ALL pedophiles were conditioned. Thus my stance with the biological aspect that we are born in our sexuality. Tell me, can you pick up the conditioning to have sex with dead bodies? There is an impossibility, as we (at least most of us) are never near the dead for more than several hours. And so goes for the other choices of sexuality. So I am stubbornly sticking to biology as the sole means of why we have a particular sexual proclivity!

I totally agree with you in the consent department, and I am not condoning the desecration of children, animals, or anyone that is not of the intellectual capacity to understand and permit sex. Here, only, is the talk of Nature vs. Nurture, and I solely stuck to the dynamics of human sexuality, not of the consent, excuse, or perhaps the absurdity of an attraction to a frigidaire!! I merely wanted a focus on ALL of the dynamics of human sexual choices, before we can actually sit down to pick apart the homosexual, or bisexual subdivision. We should examine ALL, don't you think?

Sil, Can I convince you otherwise? I seriously, have a problem with you thinking that you were turned gay? This can cause you great grief if you are not careful!!

Pukkap, read my rebuttal,..lol. And while these Christians WANT, Christianity to be a choice, their desire is of no consequence to me, or the rest of the homosexual community. I refuse to feel badly for loving men.

[fredv3b]

This all messed up when I fell madly in love with one of my friends, the typical teenage puppy love. But it was much more heartfelt then any girls I'd been with or thought were nice, so that was a turning point.

I'd be open to the fact I was lying to myself before that point, but I'd honestly say I felt more like I turned gay than was born that way?

Sil,

In one sense we are not born gay. In order to be gay or straight you have to have romantic and sexual attractions. We become gay (or straight) when are testicles kick into action. The question is, is our future sexual orientation determined before birth?

Given the indoctrination into heterosexuality we all receive through childhood and the roller-coaster of emotions testosterone kicks off it is hardly surprising that many take some time to realise our true sexual orientation. This is not lying to ourselves or denial, that comes next.

Do you, with the benefit of hindsight, believe that you were truly straight before you reached your turning point? Only if you were straight could you be turned gay.

P.S. Don't knock being middle class ;o)

[Samsonic91]

You are born gay. End of story. It doesn't make any sense to me when people say it's a choice...why would I, or others here, CHOOSE to be gay, so we can persecuted MORE?