East Wrote:Forgiving myself is a very good reminder Fenris and something I have never considered...this whole thing has been a huge cloud for me where it is hard to think logically. I have an easy enough time forgiving other people but fogiving myself is always difficult.
As for beiong th right decision for me with my actions...
The mistake I made...and I knew I was making a mistake when i made it...came when I would see someone who was obviously suffering and I noticed people who did not want to face the illness just either avoiding them or pretending there was nothing wrong all around them and they looked so sad and scared and isolated so I decided that the best way I could help was to not pretend nothing was wrong...to roll up my sleeves and ask them if they were in pain...to let them know I wanted to hear their voice and what they said mattered still and that they were still a whole person.....as an empath I opened myself up to everything they were feeling and I cannot even begin to tell anyone the price I paid for that...the good part is that I knew the price ahead of time and I would do it again I think if the same thing happened.
The part where I was being true to myself was that I cannot stand to watch someone suffer if there is anything I can do to help them and that was the only thing I could think to do at the time so I am good with it. Of course...I couldn't do anything.
The gay friends I have now I keep at a distance...for a long time I didn't' want to make any other friends because I just can't face that again. On Facebook I had so many people who heard I was on there ask to be my friend and sure enough...lots of other people who I didn't' know were sick were there and telling me about what was happening and I freaked out and shut down my account...another thing I feel guilty about. I blame it on Farmville (Farmville MIGHT have been a reason had it not been for AIDS) but the real reason is that I just cannot face anymore of it and of course...makes me feel guilty and this time I really am. Intellectually I know I am not ACTUALLY guilty for anyone dying and I know I at least tried to help but running away from everyone on FB with no note...I am OK with feeling guilty about it. No way could I turn anyone down or tell them I didn't want to hear about it or visit with them but I just don't' have anything left anymore. I am tapped out. The problem actually is compounded a bit because as a bartender I knew thousands and thousands of guys and since I was gay from 14 on and hanging out with groups of other gay guys I knew ALOT of gay people...so I watched ALOT of people die.
I think you need a much more better shield to protect yourself or better your soul. It is not your fault that people suffer and die.... you only want to protect and help and that in a good way. Allow yourself 1 or my maybe 2 hours of mourning after someone died... and then try to come back to your life. You should build up a wall between your feelings and the things wich happen without your fault.... its like a doctor.. or maybe a priest... they can mourn .. they can have their feelings and silent moments... but then they must come back to earth.... to be there if someone needs help.
A very good way is the "day of the dead" .. or the pagan samhain... a day to think on them wich are gone. That is a limited period of time to mourn, to think on people... but after that time you can come back to your life... with the knowledge you have done all possible things. Give your own soul time to recovery.... to processing your experiences. It is not easy ... but you can learn it. First time I have done care for someone dying I had so much fears ... Did I all things right .. can I do things better.... and whats when the person is dead.... can I sleep afterwards... whats at night... see I the face.... and I thought that I let all things happen with a free mind. And nothing bad happened ... sure.. I mourned ... as the person died ... but what is the alternate ? endless suffering.... And I learned dying can be the only help someone can get. But it is nature ... a follow of a illness.... an accident .... age .. whatever .... but it is not YOUR fault..... you have done what you can do to make the last time in someones life easy.... and that he or she have not to die alone. But my religion is a big help... I can open the window and say: Great goddess.. I give you back "name"... now its your job to care for him. And I do it in the same way if one of my animals die..... soul is soul  mile:
Take care for your soul and your feelings.... and I´m sure you can handle it.... it is not your fault what happened .... you are only the one who care about other people mile
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East, I'm so sorry you are going through this. It pains me. I know you understand what I mean by that. I truly treasure our friendship.
I'm working on a big project for a class, so forgive me if my thoughts seem a little scattered. But, I want you to know I am thinking of you.
Survivor's Guilt is a passive guilt. So, by passive guilt, I mean, this is guilt that you are putting on yourself yet you have done absolutely nothing wrong. If I recall correctly from one of your previous posts in another thread, you and some of your friends were requested to go to a clinic and get tested, but you chose not to go, and all the ones that did, ended up getting AIDS. That story has stuck in my mind. I'm not sure if my thought process makes sense, but could you be feeling like you were privy to knowledge that others did not have and that is causing one aspect of your guilt?
Guilt says you have power or control over a situation. You have to really concentrate on and accept the FACT that you really had no control and are in no way responsible for who contracted HIV then. None. There was nothing you could have done. You have not caused anything by omission or act.
You don't have the answer to this mystery of ‘why,’ and never will. You have shared your theory, given others pause for thought, and that's all you can do. You have to let it go. You are very much here for a reason. You are so respected and loved, my friend.
Not using a condom is active guilt. You did have power/control over this situation. Could there have been a part of you that felt like you deserved HIV, and you wanted to punish yourself? This would actually be a form of indirect self-destructive behavior (suicide being direct). It's almost like chronic suicide. It's like you saw yourself in that picture and you should be a member of that group, so you do risky behavior to achieve the negative outcome; one of the major elements is that the person is intellectually aware of the risk.
I think this has taken care of itself because you are in a long term monogamous relationship. The action has eliminated itself. But you do need to deal with the fact that you put yourself and your lover at risk in the past. Forgive yourself and the irresponsible behavior. Your test results are real. Let this guilt go.
So, now your results: I think you are now at a point in your life where you truly want to live. But, there's this ticking time bomb because I think you do fear that you have latent HIV. Even though you have your results they are from a medical system which you do not trust deep down inside. So, your mind just cannot rationalize the results with your past behavior.
What you describe in your crying is almost like you were told you do have HIV. It's almost like you are playing a mind game with yourself. Why? You worked yourself into an out of control empath who has taken the emotions for an entire group. I think you are taking the “news” for every one of your friends in that picture over and over again, each time you get your results. You are feeling what they must have felt. You have to stop because this is more dangerous to you than plain old guilt. I'm glad you shut down your fb. You have to stay in this period of detachment to preserve your mental health/reestablish your protective shield around you. I really don't think you should go to see the quilt any time soon. It's just not time.
Your empathic self brings warmth, happiness and peace to others at the expense of your own. You need to focus on life right now. Spring is here, make a garden, feed the birds, get a pet from the shelter and celebrate something very much alive. Focus on joy, laughter, go take a walk with your lover and hold his hand. Because you know what??? Of all those people in the picture, you know which one you have truly forgotten? You've forgotten East! You! You have got to remember yourself and care for yourself.
You have done enough grieving. And, I'm saying that with love, and I'm not forgetting anyone who has lost his life. All who were lost were not in vain, they let another generation live.
Look at that picture and see the faithful friend, the fighter, the one to tell the tale.
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zeon Wrote:Medication is an addictive thing and not worth going onto hence why i refused it but i did manage to pull myself out of depression and it took 18 months to do so...
Good for you getting yourself through depression. However antidepressants are not addictive, it is true that some people become somewhat dependent on them but that is true of many things in life. No one tells asthmatics not to take inhalers because they might get dependant on them. If it weren't for antidepressants I would not be in gainful employment today.
Fred
Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans.
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East Wrote:You know...I always felt horribly guilty for even feeling anything for myself when I watched all of these other people suffer so much....how can I complain about anything after what they went through? I felt like a whiny snot nosed idiot for even daring to have any feelings other than being strong for them
Does that seem rational to you? Did you accept that others watching the suffering had feelings themselves. Perhaps you need to work on setting yourself realistic standards to live up to?
Fred
Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans.
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[/QUOTE] I don't know what to do about the Survivors Guilt and I don't know who to ask anymore. Has anyone experienced this on any level or do you have any advice on how to overcome it? Maybe you might see something I cannot see myself?[/QUOTE]
Hi East. I have been thinking about your post since I read it yesterday. I have to admit to you that I am having trouble processing it because the things it brings up aren’t easy for me to think about. You and I have talked in the past about how AIDS affected our early adult hood and though I can see where your coming from with your question, I have trouble putting my own thoughts into coherent order when I think about those times and the people who died.
However, you are my friend and I will give you the best answer I can.
I have seen survivor guilt. My friend Bill survived his lover. They had been with each other for years before Joe was diagnosed. Joe fought for 14 years until the disease finally took him. He wouldn’t kiss Bill on the lips from the first day that he was diagnosed until the day he died. I cant even begin to put myself into Bill's shoes. Moving on with his life after such a loss was a deeply personal and altering journey for my friend. I cannot express in words how Bill changed as a person but I can say that it was a profoundly spiritual change.
I am not a psychologist, but over the years I have become aware that we in the gay community struggle on many levels with self love. Blame the media, the politicians, the churches, hell blame our parents; society as a whole tells us every day that we are less than and deserving of pain, humiliation and shame. Homosexual youth have one of the highest rates of suicide and as adults gay men practice micro-suicide and self abuse via drug use, alcoholism, unsafe sexual practices and a variety of other behaviors whose ultimate purpose is destruction of the self.
Ultimately, I can find no simple answers to your questions. I do know that it all comes down to loving ones self. Achieving that, particularly for a gay man, is a life journey in and of itself. I wish you (and all of us really) the best of luck.
Love ya boy,
Beaux
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Nice messages, all of you. I think I'll say thank you for deepening all your thoughts in this "debate"...
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I have been thinking about everything all you guys have said to me since I wrote this and I want to thank everyone who helped me both in this thread and via PM...I am humbled. I honestly did not think I would be able to get any help when I wrote it but a part of me was hoping I could and you know what? I am positive I will be able to process this now which is 1,000 miles from where I was yesterday and every day before that and that is HUGE!. I realized that one of my problems was I didn't really want to let go of it until now and wanting to overcome anything is the first step to doing so.
What you all collectively have said to me about guilt..well...it worked. I heard you. I have never really been open to listening before so as odd as it sounds I honestly did not even consider that I had any other option and when i tried to get out of the prison I had built in my mind and in my heart I really thought I would be abandoning all these people who I loved so much....
The things you guys have said to me far exceeded anything I could have hoped for. I want to comment on a few things individually so I will wait and do so but in the meantime I just want to tell you all how grateful I am to all of you. I am a bit challenged when it comes to expressing my feelings on paper so I hope you can feel it.
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Oh yes, we can, at least, I can... I can only really talk for myself, East... But I heard it all too, and thought it was a most fascinating subject. Glad you brought it up. It has great resonance for me too, and probably for others as well
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ive read your post but not all replies,,, just hope u get a therapist to help n start wearing condoms - just dont want to read one day that you died !! its as blunt as that mate, i like reading your posts so id miss that...thats my selfish take on it
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Survivors Guilt
