Osama bin Laden dead

[fenris]

Fenris, I don't think the United States is the only one who is guilty of ignoring international agreements. Indeed, there are two famous and lawful extradition cases where EU states refused to extradite to the United States. One for something as dispicable as Child molestation. So, the cookie crumbles. Though, it is likely that Pakistan was knowingly harboring a confessed terrorist. So, I really don't think they have the moral high ground in this situation. But, perhaps you would have preffered the United States and Russia not entering into Germany so many years ago to try and aprehend (dead or alive) another such malignancy in human form.

hm ... I stop any kind of discussion from my side about the bin-laden case here.... because I don´t want to mix the bin-laden-case with cases of child molestation, WW2 and other not comparable cases.

[TimmyThink]

Bullet threw the eyeball is plenty of justice for me, in fact I think they should have split the 25 mil bounty that was on Bin Laden's head between the Seal Team 6 members as a job well done bonus.

[Wintereis]

hm ... I stop any kind of discussion from my side about the bin-laden case here.... because I don´t want to mix the bin-laden-case with cases of child molestation, WW2 and other not comparable cases.

1. You were talking about international agreements and a nation's inability to meet them. I was too. Applicable
2. You were talking about sovereignty rights related to crimes against humanity. I was talking about sovereignty rights related to crimes against humanity. Applicable.
3. You should probably think through broad, xenophobic statements before you make them. Or I might just call you on it.

[Wintereis]

Obama was clearly engaging in state sponsored terrorism. Hooray for Obama. Obama was clearly bragging to Moslems I killed a Moslem. Every decent Moslem will feel the need to get even with Obama. Sooner or later some Moslem will retaliate at America. We will be offered the chance to seize the oil fields controlled by Moslems. We will all say hooray. The oil fields will be used to reduce our enormous debt to Moslems. We will then balance the budget and get on with traditional American politics. One warning--the people who felt bad about dropping atom bomb on Japan will again feel guilty. I was born 9 months to the day after Japan was bombed. My parents did not feel guilty, they felt horny. I look forward to the next baby boom when our debt has been eliminated. I feel horny already and I'm not even married. Advertisers will grin and spend more on ads. Media will grin and say nice things to each other and about how wonderful it is to being to be an American when we have peace and prosperity.
BOY I AM GLAD OBAMA CHOSE TO BRAG

Honey, what ever you are smoking, it's doing you more harm than good.

[fredv3b]

Wintereis,

Thanks for your reply. How far does something have to be from ideal justice before America does itself a diservice in calling it justice?

I appreciate there was a firefight but it did not involve bin Laden, he was unarmed. I accept that there could well have been good reason why his killing was a necessity. I also accept that there may well be good reason why that reason cannot be fully explained. However I am not prepared to take it on trust.

If bin Laden was assaignated, that is not necessarily a bad thing. It may well be that his loss may impair Al-Quaeda's ability to act collectively or deter his successor from being so public.

I feel comfortable with his killing, I just feel very uncomfortable with calling it justice.

[azulai]

Fenris, ...//snip// But, perhaps you would have preffered the United States and Russia not entering into Germany so many years ago to try and aprehend (dead or alive) another such malignancy in human form.

As someone with Jewish blood running through my veins, I'm personally offended that you would make such a horrible statement toward Fenris. It is a statement totally unnecessary to your post/argument.

I usually appreciate your opinions, Wintereis. And, while I may not agree with them, I would respect them, try to learn a little something, and enjoy your eloquence. But, this is just low and wrong; and personally insulting to someone I admire. I really try to control my mouth/temper but I just can't let this go. What you said is cheap and offensive. And, I'm calling you on it. I think you owe Fenris an apology.

Shalom. A Song for Peace

[fenris]

mile:

I think I was a bit unfair too, but the problem in this case is more the language and a to fast translation with only a few words ... I never want to insult someone ...
My problem in the bin-laden case is only the LAW .. not the country, not the Citizens.. and you can be sure that my opinion about some german laws is not better.
It relates only to the bin-laden-case, not any other case ( in time mile: ).. I ´m strictly again any kind of death penalty... and a situation wich ended in a situation like death penalty has to be prevented.
The best solution in this case ( for my opinion ) would be to send bin-laden alive to a court ( maybe den hag / the Hague ) .... so the world can be sure the all his crimes can be shown and nobody can say that he maybe was not as bad as he was. And it would prevent that he maybe becomes a martyr. You know ... like nuremberg for the german-nazi-leadership was. The world has seen the crime ... open ... the world has heard the Crimes directly from the War-criminals....

The problem why I can´t answer to Wintereis argues is, that my opinion is that we can´t count apples and pears as one fruit :-)
By example .... at the times when Germany was entered by the US, France, England and Russia the Conventions of geneve was not signed by Germany ... Germany signed as Bundesrepublik in 1954..... AND in 1945 as they entered Germany it was a case of self defence in a open declared war between countrys ... not a declared war of a terrorist btw a group of terrorists.... and self defence is allowed in every case.

And .. very important to .... That Bin-Laden was a terrorist is not a Question for me - He was definitely.


( Me and xenophobic :eek: ... if that would be true I had to excommunicate myself )

[VonSteuben]

Wee now that OBL is dead, the troops can be pulled out of Iraq and supplanted into another country to keep the military industrial, now military corporatist complex going. Wee more debt and making the world hate us further while we slide into the last thirty years of the imperialist model that started in 1945.

Suffice to say, I don't agree with American foreign policy, I haven't for a long time and it wasn't 9/11 that made me change my mind, it was World War 1. For you won't finding me hating America or hating Muslims because of one event ten years ago.

[Cardiganwearer]

[FONT=&quot]Fred, what are trials for? Trials are for the pursuit of the ideal of justice. But--as you know and as Plato states and as Derrida reaffirms--by definition, the ideal is unattainable. I'm saying that this world has a very long history of injustice. It has a fairly long history of achieving just in its innate or natural form. It has a very limited history in implementing a constitutional or ideal justice based in empiricism. Frankly, Fred, since there was a firefight involved, I doubt that a trial could ever have occurred. I don't think he would have allowed himself to be taken alive. Though, I think it would have actually been a greater favor to the ideals of the western world which, of course, Osama Bin Laden was diametrically opposed. But as you state, there would naturally be issues with sovereignty. [/FONT]

You mentioned the second world war in one of your posts. This was followed by a trial, at the instigation of America. Churchill, it seems would have been happy to have all the leading nazis sumarilly shot. It seems back then that America was determined to extend to others the rights it insists on for it's own citizens. It set an example to the world.

Since 9/11 America seems to have backtracked more than somewhat, people held for years without charge or trial at Guantanamo, torture conducted in the same place and now sumary excecution on foreign soil. The most powerfull nation on earth seems no longer to see the need to set an example.

I think it applies to people of all nations to consider that what their governments are happy to do to foreigners or do in foreign parts, they would be happy to do at home if they thought they could get away with it.

[fredv3b]

To my mind the difference between bin Laden and the Nazi leaders was that bin Laden was an out-law. He was a Saudi Arabian national, he was a wanted man in his own country. He had entered and resided in Pakistan without that country's government's knowledge or permission (paying off a few low ranking officials doesn't count) when he clearly was persona non grata. I think he had plainly placed himself outwith the protection of the law.

Nazi leaders on the other hand were full German Citizens in Germany entitled to the full protection of the law, including the law of the occupying powers. Therefore I think their trial was legally necessary but the same is not true of bin Laden.