Why are gay guys so bloody annoying to me!?

[dfiant]

And I would add the 'the list up there' as well

SHAMELESS :-) I love that show

[azulai]

You can't control or dictate how other people should express themselves to make yourself feel better.

Would you want someone to write you off just because of your voice? Look at people as individuals that have value and find their inner beauty. It's there. None of us are perfect. You might find that someone is struggling with an issue but in their self-journey, you can admire their strength or perseverance. You might find someone struggling with depression and you can admire their determination to find it's source and heal.

We tend to hate in others and see as their biggest faults what we know lies within us. You can study, write all the papers you want and quote facts and stats. You are still looking in the mirror. You need to feel.

You have to develop a love for yourself, so that no matter what you see, you love yourself for who you are.

Develop a healthy sense of humor about yourself and you'll be much happier. mile:

It's late, this probably makes no sense, but hell, I'm posting it anyway. Have a laugh on me! :tongue:

[Cardiganwearer]

I am not gay. My sexual orientation is gay. (In other words, my sexual orientation does not define me as a person and I sincerely hope it doesn't for anyone else.)

To satisfy my sociology minor, I have taken multiple classes on social deviance, sexuality, and gender; have written extensively on queer theory; and have performed multiple "gender bending" experiments in public (such as wearing make-up and high heels). Overall, I consider myself to be a fairly understanding person when it comes to gender, sexual orientation, etc.

I'm sorry to have to dissapoint your sincerest hopes.

It surprises me that someone who claims to have "studied" and "experimented" on the topic of gay people (What is it like to wear makeup and high hells in public? I've no idea and I've been gay for ages) you show practically no idea that gay is a thing about people and it finds a way of expression in all the situations it finds itself.

The greeks had it; the romans had it; the tudors had it; the victorians had it and in each of those societies it found an expression, always very different from what we see now. Gay people have always made a culture out of who they are and it has fed into mainstram culture and enriched it. Perhaps your "studies" have missed this point, I'd hate to think they deliberately avoided it.

What we have now is much more open and much more varied than has ever been experienced before and tends not to confine itself to wearing lipstick and high heels in public, which was never a very general expression of being gay anyway. We are much more part of mainstream culture than ever in the past, but thankfully still distinct (still no makeup and heels in general use though).

And it is gay, you're going to have to start using the word; homosexual is a medical term and really only used by people trying to make a point and rarely a nice one. Since you are still in the educational sphere, have you considered studying something along vetinary lines, you may have better luck with animals as people clearly are failing to measure up to your high expectations.

Queer theory notwithstanding it looks to me like you've missed the point entirely.

[OrphanPip]

My God, hins, you certainly come off as a pretentious douche, and that's tough for me to say: I'm certifiably one of the most pretentious, pedantic, selfish assholes I know of. Holy fuck, do you read what you have written before you post it. Maybe you should take a second and stop trying to frame every discussion by placing yourself in a position of moral or social superiority to others. I think the problem is that you are contemptuous of those who are different from you. You have essentially described gay people as bad, indecent and immoral in a single sentence. Not to mention otherwise casting everyone as violent sluts.

One thing is for sure, I find you more annoying than effeminate gay men.

Have a nice day.

[East]

Hm. While I'm not going to completely dismiss the idea of internalized homophobia, or perhaps internalized sexism, I certainly don't see either as being probable.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt initially (actually I kinda felt sorry for you) but with your second post you clarified any doubt. You dont have to worry about the probability of internalized homophobia because it is a certainty.

I have to ask...which studies have shown you that gay men are "the most violent? Who commissioned the studies? Bob Jones University? Michelle Bachman's conversion therapy?

I also have a good number of gay friends who I view as being good, decent, moral people who defy the stereotypes and the statistics. So while I am critical of the overall patterns of the homosexual community, I understand not to transfer those social criticisms to individuals.

How would you define good, decent and moral?

[jbrowder24]

I already gave my advice, but just want to add that what you say about sexual partners and short relationships and all that.... it's all part of why legalizing gay marriage is so important to me. I do think there are a lot of folks probably not counted in studies because they do realize later. I certainly was not promiscuous at a young age, also having wanted to wait for it to be right, even after I finally admitted to myself I was gay. But I do think young gay culture would benefit from seeing more acceptance and more role models. I think a lot of people act out due to confusion, shame, etc., and I'd like to see that end. I hope no one misunderstands me, as I do also think we should embrace the differences of those that know what they like. Though a few things still gross me out, I honestly don't care if someone is into bondage or furries or feet or whatever. But I do think that some of what has been spoken about here, speaks to a great problem.... and hinsonba is a good example of that problem on the one side... because a lack of overall acceptance and role models does sometimes lead to some to act out, like in the studies.... or vice versa, leads gay men to despise other gay men because of a struggle for acceptance, both with themselves and in larger society. I'm really rambling and hope this makes sense without being insulting.

[hinsonba]

I would like to admit up-front I probably made some rather poor word choices when initially posting this thread – particularly with the title – and do apologize for that. Instead of saying “gay guys,” I should have said “effeminate guys” in the title. This simple change would have made a huge difference, I think, in how everything else is both read and interpreted. I thought, though, that I made it clear in my post that I was not exclusively talking about homosexual males, but about males in general with the statement, “it still drives me absolutely insane to listen to effeminate males talk and even more-so to watch their body language.”

As SlipknotRlZZ suggested, I “find some of the more effeminate homosexuals overly dramatic and stuff in the way they carry themselves around,” and that sums up relatively well the whole of the statement I was trying to make. While I did not need to state anything from my past, I felt that a few aspects should at least be mentioned simply to show that I am not some ignorant, backward hick making his debut into the queer world – that I do have a decent understanding of sex, gender, and sexual orientation, at least in my opinion. (Oh, and Cardiganwearer, when I mentioned the social deviation experiments (i.e. wearing high heels and make-up in public), I specifically stated that those were “gender bending” experiments, not “experiments in the life of the everyday homosexual.”) I was also trying to show that, contrary to what jbrowder24 stated, I am “comfortable with being gay.”

Notwithstanding my own mistakes in posting this thread, I find it absolutely grotesque that anyone here would accuse me (someone none of you have ever met or even had a lengthy conversation with) of being homophobic! Yes, overly-effeminate gays irritate me (as do people who chew with their mouth open, who text while I’m talking to them, and who express misguided, unintelligible religious commentary, such as Glenn Beck), but not once have I even hinted that I want to change, “control or dictate how other people should express themselves,” and I am appalled by that very notion! I was merely stating that this behavior annoys me and inquiring into how other people feel on this topic as well as asking for their own experiences and views.

As I stated in my second post, yes, the studies are biased (and perhaps, East, if you had taken the time to read what I had written, you wouldn’t have been so apt to jump to accusations of homophobia and declaring your pity for me). Every study, every thought, and every piece of writing ‘has’ bias in it! The existence of this bias, though, does not, necessarily, negate the validity of these findings – it simply means that they should, like everything else, be looked over carefully and taken with a grain of salt. Furthermore, I merely stated that “I’ve seen the research and statistics,” not that I necessarily endorse them! And even if I do endorse these studies, it still would not intrinsically make me homophobic – in the same way that a person who is critical of their government is not intrinsically unpatriotic.

I do believe, as jbrowder24 suggested, that there is a “lack of overall acceptance and role models” for homosexuals, which, in turn, leads to “some to act out.” For so many queer adolescents, they grow up in communities ignorant of queer life and queer issues and with similar parents who would rather disown them than admit to having raised a queer child. As of last Summer, of the 1.6 million to 2.8 million homeless youth in the United States, 20-40% of them are gay or transgender, compared to them only constituting 5-10% of the entire youth population. This homelessness, in turn, often leads to alcohol and drug abuse, victimization (verbally, physically, and sexually), and/or a life in prostitution, among a host of other problems – all of which tends to be overlooked by child welfare as well as governmental and private youth groups. Furthermore, this information is virtually never presented in, or alongside, the studies of homosexual adults!

In my (very limited) experience, many people like to consider the queer community as being similar to a utopia and reject any study or even any statement that there may be some problem or issue as being homophobic at its very core. The fact is, though, that, just as in any other community, there exist social problems! And while I don’t know if this played into the accusations of my being homophobic (I’m resting most of the blame on my word choices), I think this phenomenon should be acknowledged!

While I do find overly-effeminate behavior among gay males annoying, it does not diminish my respect for them as human beings nor alter my belief that we all have the right to self-expression. While I do believe there are huge social problems widespread in the queer community, it does not alter my identity as a gay male, nor my choice to remain an advocate for this community. And neither of these aspects of myself makes me homophobic!

[Cardiganwearer]

I am “comfortable with being gay.” ...

... I find it absolutely grotesque that anyone here would accuse me (someone none of you have ever met or even had a lengthy conversation with) of being homophobic!...


...While I do find overly-effeminate behavior among gay males annoying, it does not diminish my respect for them as human beings ...

But not, it would seem, comfortable with other people being gay in a way that suits them.

You shouldn't be surprised that people who don't know you should accuse you of homphobia, your post is all we have to go on. After all, we don't know you.

How do you find overly effeminate behaviour among straight people? I know a man who'd fabulously camp, married twice (women both tomes) raised four kids, has gay freinds with whom he's comfortable so he's not in denial. Would he pass your stringent criteria about how other people should behave.

You've every right to have negative views on effeminate men, you've every right to voice them. At issue is your choice of venue. Slag off effeminate men on a gay message board and what really did you expect?

Your posts here and elsewhere on the boards show a leaning towards academic research for support. You must remember, all that theoretical stuff has counter arguments and I daresay they teach both. What you seem to be missing is that what they're actually trying to teach is critical thinking.

Far be it for me to suggest you lack that critical faculty, because, after all, I don't know you. But I have to admire your capacity for backpedalling.

[East]

As I stated in my second post, yes, the studies are biased (and perhaps, East, if you had taken the time to read what I had written, you wouldn’t have been so apt to jump to accusations of homophobia and declaring your pity for me).

I am curious...you said you wrote and studied "extensively" on the subject of gays...did you ever consider internalized homophobia? It is extremely common and actually rather hard to escape. The real problem is that in order to overcome this you have to acknowledge it.

...and this part.....

I also have a good number of gay friends who I view as being good, decent, moral people who defy the stereotypes and the statistics.

"good decent and moral" gay people..the good number that you know .....defy the stereotypes and statistics?????????? What am I missing? You are stating here that "good, decent and moral" gay people are a rarity. THAT is why I am sure you have internalized homophobia. I asked you to define "good, decent and moral" for that reason...

[Rawr]

P.S. Firefox is awesome! After the second paragraph, I accidentally closed this tab, meaning to close out another, and was able to re-open the tab, saving all that I had written! I love it when technology "simply works."

I approve, Firefox is the best!!

Back on topic: I can understand what you mean at times, but to me it doesn't matter about gender or sexual orientation etc... It's all the same, you get people who you like and others which annoy the hell out of you. Perhaps you've just been exsperienceing the wrong social group of people?