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The Pitch: Banning All Religion
#21
I held back on this discussion, just to see what others might say. I don't have any special insight, just a lot of prejudices of my own.

I believe religious organisations are responsible for a vast number of unspeakable horrors, either through commission or omission, but I believe there are also individuals who do good things for other people which they attribute to their religious beliefs. I suspect that many of these champions of fairness and justice might have been moved to perform good acts without being influenced by religions. I think that many of these individuals are probably too modest to accept that they, not their churches, are what has made a difference, but proving such a theory is probably not possible.

Were the decision mine, I would not ban religion. What people feel enriches their lives spiritually should be a private affair and not subject to interference by the state. However I would, given a choice, ensure religion had no part to play in the affairs of the nation. I happen to believe that a secular state is the fairest way to ensure that the largest number of religious freedoms are maintained. I shall be marching in London next Saturday with others who believe that the secular voice should be heard above the mostly empty clanging of competing religions. Sadly, despite some progress in some areas of British society and culture, religious belief still has far too much influence on the lives of those who have no wish to be subjected to various faith agenda.

Britain is the only country in Western Europe in which children are required by law to be subjected to a daily act of worship in schools. This is supposed to be "mainly of a Christian character". Religious education is a legally required subject of study, but unlike other subjects in the National Curriculum the content of the RE curriculum is decided locally by Standing Advisory Councils for Religious Education which are generally composed of vested interests. A large and increasing proportion of schools (even state schools) are managed, at least in part, by the churches. This includes the hiring and firing of teaching staff. In the past this has meant Church of England and Roman Catholic schools with a few Jewish ones thrown in. Now any group can seek permission to open a so-called "Free School", the first of which have started trading this month. Free schools are excused from abiding by the National Curriculum and many people fear that some of these institutions may give more time to belief than, for example, to science. I don't see how that is fair to a nation of children that are being subjected outside school to the often irrational convictions of families, cultures and religions. Education should reach into and seek to inform all realms of experience producing children who have lively, enquiring minds and who can engage in rational arguments. The purpose of education should never have been simply to produce the next generation of automata. Education should be a buffer and a counter-balance to irrational belief and fear. Too often it has simply reinforced them.

Our upper chamber of Parliament has places reserved for the bishops, the so-called Lords Spiritual. Following strong lobbying by the churches these places will not disappear altogether even when or if the House of Lords (or whatever it turns into) becomes an "all-elected" chamber.

In the early twentieth century, Pope Pious managed to come to an arrangement with Mussolini, which having gone unchecked has resulted in the Roman Catholic church setting up its headquarters as a state. In this capacity the Catholic church has interfered in the work of committees in the United Nations setting back the causes of fairness and human rights for decades. We have too many examples of how RC "law" has undermined justice and caused untold misery and suffering. I've referred many times to my upbringing as a Mormon. Thankfully, their numbers are too small in this country for me ever to have been required to produce a "temple recommend" at a job interview. That is not the case elsewhere in the world.

I reject the right of any religious faction to wield the kind of influence that all these groups are currently exploiting and seeking to establish further in Europe. An outright ban is too simplistic and could never be made to work. I would like to think that education has a key role to play in helping people make fair and rational decisions based on evidence-based phenomena. I think we have an uphill task. There is a lot of money and power at stake. The foot soldiers of God's armies are often the ones who never see the fruits of their labours. But that's okay when you can have a harp, a cloud, a harem of virgins, or the promise of coming back as something more fortunate after death.
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#22
Oh, I guess I must have misinterpreted what you said. I took the following to indicate that you were saying the U.S. had a 90+% Christian population:

colinmackay Wrote:I suspect that many in its government are Muslims (since 90+% of the population is) which colours there policies (just as many in the US are Christians and that equally colours their policies).

Thanks for the clarification.
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#23
Banning religion outright would be an affront to personal choice and freedom, and I believe it is too strong a message and too forceful an approach. I believe that facilitating the process of religious education (that is, educating about its contradictions, flaws, etc.) would be a better goal. But it is not our place to decide for anyone else what to believe. The line should be drawn at giving people the tools to make an informed decision.
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#24
Zophia Wrote:Banning religion outright would be an affront to personal choice and freedom, and I believe it is too strong a message and too forceful an approach. I believe that facilitating the process of religious education (that is, educating about its contradictions, flaws, etc.) would be a better goal. But it is not our place to decide for anyone else what to believe. The line should be drawn at giving people the tools to make an informed decision.


I just wonder when you say "educating about its contradictions, flaws, etc." do you mean only these things? There are also many benefits/wisdoms in individual parables and laws/commandments, consistencies within and between religions, etc. Some would likely construe only teaching the negative aspects of religion as bias if not complete propaganda. And some would view teaching anything about any religion or all religions as unconstitutional, at least in public institutions.
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#25
There is a huge difference between teaching religion and teaching about religion.

Stories are fun and are a testament to the creative imagination. Sometimes they help explain difficult ideas and sometimes they can drop ideas into difficult contexts. However, decisions about people's lives should be based on evidence and facts more than on stories and hope. No one book should ever be allowed to accrue so much power that its ideas become unimpeachable. Never stop asking questions.
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#26
Never stop asking questions

AMEN brother...I agree with every word you said but I especially agree with this and especially when it comes to religion.

When I was in college I had two born agains that I reconverted to "non" born agains...and I did it on THIER terms since they insisted on invading MY space...I politely listened to them for five minutes and then I insisted on my five minutes.

I kept it simple...I asked them if it was true that God created everyone? The answer was "yes". I said "Good...now lets put that aside"...and then my next question..."You are telling me that if someone does not accept Jesus Christ as their Savior they are going to hell?...Correct?" ...and when they said "Yes" I replied once again..."Now lets put that aside"...and then I wrapped it up and told them their God must be one stupid son of a bitch because he was cranking out folks on all of the continents before the good Christians "discovered" them (BARF...like they need to be "discovered")...how frakin obnoxious is that?

So I finished it off telling them that if they really believe that God was creating...say...American Natives and sending them to hell because they hadn't been "saved" yet that they were truly idiots...and then I offered them swamp land in Florida at a great price:biggrin:

In fact..."IF" the "Devil" is an angel who was playing God on earth...and these people who went around to save folks...actually they invaded their land...raped and murdered them and brought them disease while stealing their land...they were playing God here on earth in every sense of the word...and that was in essence their definition of the devil....

...amazing what a few questions will yield...
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#27
@Marshlander: I presume your response was general but also in reply to my comments. So, I will answer.

marshlander Wrote:There is a huge difference between teaching religion and teaching about religion.

That is very true. However, there is also a huge difference between teaching about religion and teaching about a single aspect or dimension of religion--"educating about its contradictions, flaws, etc."--too. It seems to me a terrible irony when people declare religion to be bigoted, hypocritical, and an instrument of brainwashing and then turn around and advocate banning religion or teaching about it as if it is solely a negative aspect of culture and society,

Every -ism, that is every ideology, posses the inherent ability to be taken to dangerous extremes, that goes for Theism, Communism, Socialism, Capitalism, Darwinism, Rationalism, Nationalism, Liberalism etc. All of these can be terribly destructive forces when taken to extremes, and everyone of them has proven that fact.

marshlander Wrote:Stories are fun and are a testament to the creative imagination. Sometimes they help explain difficult ideas and sometimes they can drop ideas into difficult contexts. However, decisions about people's lives should be based on evidence and facts more than on stories and hope.

Compassion, empathy, sympathy, things which stories often give us, should not be lightly dismissed. There is a reason why Pathos is listed as one of the three major tools of Oratory by Aristotle. Logos alone cannot give us a clear picture nor can it give us true justice. And facts, well, facts and evidence can be as misleading as ideology itself in the right circumstances.


marshlander Wrote:No one book should ever be allowed to accrue so much power that its ideas become unimpeachable.

“Books! You lie there; the fact is, you books must know your places. You’ll do to give us the bare words and facts, but we come in to supply the thoughts”— Herman Melville.


marshlander Wrote:Never stop asking questions.

"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."-Thomas Jefferson

Like Jefferson, I am a Deist. And like Jefferson, I believe that the State has no place to dictate to individuals what they should believe and who they should or should not worship, not even to the point of providing a lopsided "education" on the topic.

I hope this grants you a better understanding of why I am opposed to banning religion or even providing a course on the negative aspects of religion. It is not because I am religious, but because I find the thought of imposing systems of belief upon others appalling.

Of course, as a gay man, I am well aware of the attempts of SOME religious peoples to impose their beliefs on me, but there are better ways of addressing such situations. As Ghandi said, playing on the Talmudic doctrine, "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." I find that to be true. So, in accordance with Ghandi's observation, I utilize another Biblical quote: "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them." -Matthew 7:12. I find a great deal of wisdom, reason, and compassion in that statement. Even if it comes from a book that, more often than not, I disagree with.

Have a good weekend all. Confusedmile:
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#28
Inchante Wrote:I just wonder when you say "educating about its contradictions, flaws, etc." do you mean only these things? There are also many benefits/wisdoms in individual parables and laws/commandments, consistencies within and between religions, etc. Some would likely construe only teaching the negative aspects of religion as bias if not complete propaganda. And some would view teaching anything about any religion or all religions as unconstitutional, at least in public institutions.

There are positive teachings in religions such as Christianity, but those things do not need the religion to flourish. Morality does not need a god or gods. Those consistencies between religions prove that well enough... they have no consistent entity of worship (and in some religions, such as Buddhism, none at all), yet they still come up with some of the same thoughts on right action. Which, to me, illustrates that a particular religion is not needed to be a good person. Coupled with my own atheism and views on morality, I am able to ascertain that NO religion is needed to be a good person. (And really, is a person who needs a religion to do good things a good person?)

Religion is often treated carefully because no one wants to offend anyone. I would like the opposite -- a more critical, truthful eye. The reality is that a lot of things about religion do not stand up to scrutiny... Such as in Christianity, where the texts constantly contradict themselves, moral contradictions with today's world views run rampant (yet still, God is the author of an "objective" morality), and contradictions with science start on the first page. People also usually aren't told the historical truth about what they are reading, such as that various books in the New Testament are thought to be forgeries. Is it wrong to bring these things to light? Can truth be biased? If something does not make logical sense or is shown to be false, do we ignore it to protect those who believe it, or to protect the institution itself? Do we go out of our way to give people reasons to believe it anyway, or just say "here are the facts"?

If you're expecting me to ignore the good that religion has done for the world, I won't... (I do not believe it is 100% evil) but I also won't ignore the bad, and I think we can have the good without it. I think above all, the truth is important here, not preserving what I see as an unneeded tradition.

I don't think if I said "Myths like Betsy Ross sewing the first American flag or Columbus being a hero should be erased and replaced with real education" that anyone would call me biased for it. (Or maybe I'm naive?) Do the stories give us a sense of patriotism (or make us feel better about atrocities committed)? Perhaps. But we don't need them to feel patriotic. Reality can serve that purpose just fine.

I am also all for separation of religion and state. So teaching this in public institutions wasn't quite what I meant. Smile In terms of the advertisements, my actual thoughts were more in line with the organization having an educational website on the subject... and that our individual goals should also be to educate when placed in an appropriate situation (like East did). But in the classroom? No. This has no place there. Religion & government should be two separate things. How sad it is that they are often not.

(Sorry for the book. LOL. A little wordy, aren't I? Smile)
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#29
Inchante Wrote:Compassion, empathy, sympathy, things which stories often give us, should not be lightly dismissed. There is a reason why Pathos is listed as one of the three major tools of Oratory by Aristotle. Logos alone cannot give us a clear picture nor can it give us true justice. And facts, well, facts and evidence can be as misleading as ideology itself in the right circumstances.

The same book that gives you feel-good stories about prodigal sons also gives out bloody commands to put people to death. It has the potential to inspire good works but also acts of hatred and denigration. And its followers have the potential to take it all as the literal truth -- not just bits and pieces, but to act as if every word -- commands about loving your neighbor AND those that say "their blood is upon them." -- came from the mouth of god. Cry

If it were only like Chicken Soup for the Soul then I think you'd have a point... but it really isn't. Most of the Bible actually isn't like that at all, and it isn't often treated as just an inspirational storybook.

Emotional and inspiring things should not be done away with. I don't think anyone has said that. But you don't need religion for it. Confusedmile:
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#30
I have no need for religion or the need to ban it to feel comfortable with myself. When I came out of the closet I tore my bible to shreds and tossed in the trash can which is exactly where I believe it belongs. With that said though I still believe in religious freedom. As long as the government and laws that govern the general population are based on secularism then I see no need to ban all religion. It would be impossible to ban religion. People would still believe in there hearts what they want to believe in. Trying to force them to believe anything to the contrary would only make them dig in there heals deeper and make there religious convictions stronger in the end.
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