Rip off Britain,

[Uke]

Well, you've got it Uke. You may also want to read this article

Thanks for the article. I think it's safe to say that NATO is dead meat now...I think US will and should leave the Alliance and let it collapse. Why? Because then the European Union could finally create an unified military based on the former, existing Nato hierarchy and command structure. It has been discussed already.

Because if EU had it's own army (well, they actually already have, hired army of some 100 000 members. But not in the superpower sense), it wouldn't run out of munitions in ops like Libya, and USA wouldn't have to help it's allies.

But, which one do we value? Excellent social security system, or grand army? Which one will EU favor in the end? I don't seriously know.

[Inchante]

Thanks for the article. I think it's safe to say that NATO is dead meat now...I think US will and should leave the Alliance and let it collapse. Why? Because then the European Union could finally create an unified military based on the former, existing Nato hierarchy and command structure. It has been discussed already.

Because if EU had it's own army (well, they actually already have, hired army of some 100 000 members. But not in the superpower sense), it wouldn't run out of munitions in ops like Libya, and USA wouldn't have to help it's allies.

But, which one do we value? Excellent social security system, or grand army? Which one will EU favor in the end? I don't seriously know.

That sounds like an excellent plan to me--Europe being militarily self reliant. It would save the U.S. a fortune, and it is dangerous to be so reliant on other nations for ones own security. :biggrin:

[Uke]

That sounds like an excellent plan to me--Europe being militarily self reliant. It would save the U.S. a fortune, and it is dangerous to be so reliant on other nations for ones own security. :biggrin:

Very much so We're headed to that end already, as Treaty of Lisbon states that the unified military will be the ultimate goal of the common defense policy. I think it should've done immediately after, if not WW2, then Korean war.

Also, USA shouldn't spent all of it's bucks on European military machine and let Europe spent all the surplus Euros on it's own welfare -.-' I mean, it's nice but it's unfair for Americans

[Inchante]

Very much so We're headed to that end already, as Treaty of Lisbon states that the unified military will be the ultimate goal of the common defense policy. I think it should've done immediately after, if not WW2, then Korean war.

Also, USA shouldn't spent all of it's bucks on European military machine and let Europe spent all the surplus Euros on it's own welfare -.-' I mean, it's nice but it's unfair for Americans

I think Europe was probably fairly sick of war, which we all should be. It would be nice if no country had to invest in any sort of military operations . . . but that is pie in the sky thinking as we say here.

Japan is another one which is certainly capable of defending itself now. It is a stable, wealthy, and modern nation. It is not likely to repeat events like the Rape of Nanking these days, and it is rational that it start building its military again. Though, I think the U.S. would have to remain at least part of its defense, since it has such a large and domineering neighbor, but a more autonomous role would be healthy for Japan.

[pellaz]

just saw on google.news, Obama is sending all troops home from Iraq end of 2011

i thought he was going to do Afghanistan too, oh well.

[Inchante]

Are we in Britain the most ripped off nation in Western Europe? How many of us are going to have to cut back on heating our homes this winter, and cut down on using our cars because of the exorbitant prices of gas, electricity and petrol. With wages being either frozen or even reduced in some cases and job losses is it about time that this Government does something about the energy companies? The Government had a meeting with the energy companies, then Chris Huhne (Secretary of State for Energy)came out from the meeting and said we should shop around, yet all the energy companies are in a cartel with the same pricing for their fuel, so much for competition being good.

Sorry the discussion got so sidetracked, Almac. I don't know how much the British are being ripped off in actual terms, but--as the discussion has suggested thus far from the perspective of the U.S.--the more prosperous and powerful a country is, the more likely it is to be "ripped off". If that holds true for Western Europe, GB is certainly an excellent mark. But, you have to remember that certain privileges naturally result from such positions too.

GB is a major power and wields far more influence in the world than what is proportionate to its population, resources, and size.

just saw on google.news, Obama is sending all troops home from Iraq end of 2011

i thought he was going to do Afghanistan too, oh well.

I think there is a sense among the rational to leave it in a condition where it has at least a decent chance of being and remaining stable, Pellaz. While the United States used to be the master at nation building, the environment established by the Cold War changed the military apparatus, and now we are operating at a deficit in that respect.

Really, it is quite sad.

[dfiant]

Not sure if Britain is the most taxed country and being ripped off. Australia has 124 different taxed, UK has 27(ish).

Britains Carbon tax raised A$7 billion (GBP 4.5 billion) in it's first 5 years from it's population of 60 Million people, Australia's Carbon Tax is set to raised A$76 billion (GPB 49 billion) in it's first 5 years from a population of less than 21 million.

Australia's average utility bills:
Water A$600 (GPB 390) per quarter
Power A$650 (GPB 420) per quarter
Unleaded petrol 91ron A1.50/Lt ( GPB .97)

Water and Power have tripled in the last decade, Fuel has doubled, Supermarket bills for the average family have increase 2-3 fold, Land rates have quadrupled in some cases. Literally every time we do something with our money we are taxed...Yes something as simple as withrawling money from a bank can attract upto A$2.50 tax, and then on top of this are mortgages on homes that are costing on average A$450 000 (GBP 290 000) for a basic 3 bedroom home in the suburbs...and these things are the ESSENTIALS, it leaves families with very little for some pleasures like a day at the movies with the kids.

We should rename the profession of politician to prostitute, we are all getting screwed.

Oh! and you know what pee's me off the most...these taxes go things like propping up a US war, illegal immigrants and Foriegn Aid....yeah, leave your nations people in the gutter, but you must makes illegal immigrants nice and cosey.

[colinmackay]

Finally, back on the subject of Rip Off Britain... or not.

Anyway, dfiant, your water bills are way higher than mine (although I live in Scotland, so it isn't like we have to pump it very far or desalinate it.). Your electricity prices are slightly higher than mine (I live in a small two bedroom apartment [76sq.m / 827 sq.ft]), but your petrol prices are much cheaper. The most expensive I've paid in the last month was £1.41 for a litre. I guess we lose on one bit, but you lose on another. It probably evens out overall.

[dfiant]

The Australian Carbon tax vs the Britain carbon tax is indicative of the amount of tax we pay. I mean you look at the numbers and think 'WOW that 10 times what GB are paying'...then you take population into consideration, indvidual Australians are being slugged 30 times the amount that Britons are taxed for the same thing and Australians are responsible for the emmission of a half of 1% of the worlds Carbon (A natural element required by the environment...NOT a pollutant). The Carbon Tax is only 1 of what will be 125 taxes when it is finally passed into law in Australia.

[Uke]

I think Europe was probably fairly sick of war, which we all should be. It would be nice if no country had to invest in any sort of military operations . . . but that is pie in the sky thinking as we say here.

Japan is another one which is certainly capable of defending itself now. It is a stable, wealthy, and modern nation. It is not likely to repeat events like the Rape of Nanking these days, and it is rational that it start building its military again. Though, I think the U.S. would have to remain at least part of its defense, since it has such a large and domineering neighbor, but a more autonomous role would be healthy for Japan.

I must add to the heavily sidetracked conversation of ours, that I definitely agree on Japan thing...Japan's naval fleets are extremely modern, and pretty much as capable as the navies of US, France or Britain, especially after the 22DDH class medium carriers enter service with the JMSDF.

JGSDF however took number in the 2011 Tsunami, as far as I have understood the entire North-Eastern Army got more or less hammered. The crisis has damaged the troops and tied 6th and 9th divisions into reconstruction. Also, Japan's 5th Anti-Air group, 130th Artillery Battalion and 2nd Engineer Brigade belong to the North-Eastern Army, and are based in either in the damaged city of Sendai or in radiation-contaminated prefectures of Fukushima, Iwate and Miyagi. Some of JASDF's F16s got washed away as well, but they may be salvageable. This does affect, while maybe not dramatically, to Japan's capability to defend itself and may put Japan's stealth fighter program to hold.

But I'm probably starting to annoy you and the rest of the world with my nonsense XD The original topic was Britain's plight, eh? But I'd like to continue this nonsense in PM if you like