Here's my take on religion, what's yours?

[MysteryGuest]

Well, since there seems to be a few people a little confused as to my intentions I'd like to clear a few things up.

First off, this isn't a troll thread at all, and I hope my answers to the questions didn't offend anyone. If they did, I apologize, and encourage you to take my opinions with a grain of salt. I am, after all, just a guy on the internet. The fact is, religion has always fascinated me, though I've never quite understood it.

I want to make clear, too, that I completely respect other viewpoints that differ from my own. I wouldn't have started the topic if I didn't, after all. In fact, if you have different answers to the questions than I had then I encourage you to post here, especially if you include why you believe what you do.

Finally, I realize that many of these questions blur the line between religion and philosophy, but isn't this line already pretty blurry? I actually found the questions in an article listing the ten most pressing questions of religion and philosophy and narrowed them down to the six questions you see here. These questions were the ones that I thought most tied in with religion. Questions like "is there a God?" and "what happens after death?" are pretty obviously tied to religion, but I feel like each of the other questions touches on something that is either directly related to religion, or that likely includes opinions that are influenced by one's religion. Questions like "what is good and evil?" and "what is fate, or does it even exist?" are at the very least mentioned in most religious texts.

[WesHollywood]

I took a basic class in world religions in college. The point for me was accumulating a list of rational questions you could ask Christians to show that their Bible is bull sh*t. Let's try one.

God created Adam and Eve as the first people, correct?

They had two sons Cain and Able.

Cain and Able got married. Where did their wives come from?

I have plenty more. Traditional Christianity is a con job. You can have a spiritual relationship with God without laying down cash every Sunday in a church.

I live near Hollywood, I know a stage set, lighting, and a costume piece when I see it.
When I pay for a show, I want quality movie entertainment, not fiction disguised as truth.

[Bowyn Aerrow]

I took a basic class in world religions in college. The point for me was accumulating a list of rational questions you could ask Christians to show that their Bible is bull sh*t. Let's try one.

God created Adam and Eve as the first people, correct?

They had two sons Cain and Able.

Cain and Able got married. Where did their wives come from?

I have plenty more. Traditional Christianity is a con job. You can have a spiritual relationship with God without laying down cash every Sunday in a church.

I live near Hollywood, I know a stage set, lighting, and a costume piece when I see it.
When I pay for a show, I want quality movie entertainment, not fiction disguised as truth.[/align]

With a Doctorate in Ministry I have to say that your attempt to 'bash' Christianity is pretty poor. It is easy to point out the flaws, what you will not do is change the mind - the heart of the 'true believer' who is bound to that book and the Doctrine his/her church teaches by Faith.

Faith is not found in the bible. Faith defies logic, Faith requires nothing more than a 'feeling' not some text or laboratory full of facts and equipment that measures, and proves anything. Faith is as necessary for many as breathing. We humans have a strong need to address 'our purpose' and 'what happens after death'. We also have a strong need to have a reason for babies burning up in fires, for wars, for starvation, for all of the 'bad things' that happen to us.

Faith that there is a plan and a purpose makes it possible for many people to get up and 'do something'. The day science lays down incontrovertible proof that there is no plan, no purpose and there is no heaven or God that cares, is going to be the day millions if no billions throw themselves off of high structures and doing various other things to escape the harsh reality.

And that barely scratches the surface of how important, and deep faith runs.

Most of the Christians you will meet have a strong, irrational emotional tie to the Bible, theirs is faith oriented and substantiated by a carefully places system that prevents critical thinking.

To point out the flaws of logic and the purposeful mistranslations and the errors in transcription and the fact that out of over 600 sacred writings held as 'truth' by early, Pre-Roman Christians we have a thin shadow of books selected to promote the political and social agenda of a 'Authoritative Church' and various other well known (to scholars) facts about the book, the religion does NOTHING to sway that faith.

Yes many bible-illiterate Christians accept Pulpit Doctrine blindly. Understand the nature of Doctrine before you bash the laity.

Doctrine is the interpretation of the scripture by Men who, using various tricks such as pulling verses willy-nilly out of their context, using mistranslations and deceptive transcriptions of the bible and a whole heap of 'accepted' 'Authority' handed to them by organized religion and using the circular logic of using the bible to prove the bible, combine it all to twist the Word to mean anything they want it to be.

When you sit in a real bible class, one that actually explores the various books in their eldest existent languages (In the case of the Pentateuch, Hebrew), we find that most of the Books of Moses (Pentateuch) are written in the style of prose.

Prose (poetic patterns) were used in order to pass these books down through countless generations orally. The intent was never literal, the intent was inspirational and using literary methods to pass on concepts that are related to the story.

Most clergy, those who actually went to school KNOW that the Pentateuch are not to be taken literally, that they are literary devises to lay the foundation of what is God, what is Man and the relationship between the two.

Doctrine 'forbids' teaching the laity this basic 'fact'.

The real horror is that in Seminary you are told basically flat out 'Its a con game to keep members coming back to the Church'.

Granted no professor or priest or cleric will say that out right and exactly in those words, but most know that the purpose of Organized Religion is not to save souls, but to collect lots and wealth and have political power over the people. Using their faith to enslave them.

The next time you confront a layman who has strong faith and belief in the nature of Christianity, God and the bible, understand that they are and were purposefully brainwashed to believe X,Y,Z. Their need for spiritual food, their desire to have 'faith' has been used against them to insure that The Church (whatever church they are a member of) has them paying a tithe and coming back and filling that church's agenda in politics and society.

Your typical Christian is as much a victim as those who they bible bash.

[MysteryGuest]

I'd be interested to see your answers to the questions, Wes and Bowyn.

I know that these questions may indeed be unknowable; I'm asking more for opinions on the matter. I doubt, for example, that anything that I stated in my answers is fact beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Note, too, that this thread wasn't intended to "unconvert" the religious any more than it was intended to convert the nonreligious. Had that been the case, I would have put it in the debates board. I was hoping merely to get people thinking about these important yet nebulous questions and sparking an intelligent and civil discussion of them.

[Bowyn Aerrow]

Well I was satisfying myself with just reading ....

[WesHollywood]

With a Doctorate in Ministry I have to say that your attempt to 'bash' Christianity is pretty poor. It is easy to point out the flaws, what you will not do is change the mind - the heart of the 'true believer' who is bound to that book and the Doctrine his/her church teaches by Faith.

Faith is not found in the bible. Faith defies logic, Faith requires nothing more than a 'feeling' not some text or laboratory full of facts and equipment that measures, and proves anything. Faith is as necessary for many as breathing. We humans have a strong need to address 'our purpose' and 'what happens after death'. We also have a strong need to have a reason for babies burning up in fires, for wars, for starvation, for all of the 'bad things' that happen to us.

Faith that there is a plan and a purpose makes it possible for many people to get up and 'do something'. The day science lays down incontrovertible proof that there is no plan, no purpose and there is no heaven or God that cares, is going to be the day millions if no billions throw themselves off of high structures and doing various other things to escape the harsh reality.

And that barely scratches the surface of how important, and deep faith runs.

Most of the Christians you will meet have a strong, irrational emotional tie to the Bible, theirs is faith oriented and substantiated by a carefully places system that prevents critical thinking.

To point out the flaws of logic and the purposeful mistranslations and the errors in transcription and the fact that out of over 600 sacred writings held as 'truth' by early, Pre-Roman Christians we have a thin shadow of books selected to promote the political and social agenda of a 'Authoritative Church' and various other well known (to scholars) facts about the book, the religion does NOTHING to sway that faith.

Yes many bible-illiterate Christians accept Pulpit Doctrine blindly. Understand the nature of Doctrine before you bash the laity.

Doctrine is the interpretation of the scripture by Men who, using various tricks such as pulling verses willy-nilly out of their context, using mistranslations and deceptive transcriptions of the bible and a whole heap of 'accepted' 'Authority' handed to them by organized religion and using the circular logic of using the bible to prove the bible, combine it all to twist the Word to mean anything they want it to be.

When you sit in a real bible class, one that actually explores the various books in their eldest existent languages (In the case of the Pentateuch, Hebrew), we find that most of the Books of Moses (Pentateuch) are written in the style of prose.

Prose (poetic patterns) were used in order to pass these books down through countless generations orally. The intent was never literal, the intent was inspirational and using literary methods to pass on concepts that are related to the story.

Most clergy, those who actually went to school KNOW that the Pentateuch are not to be taken literally, that they are literary devises to lay the foundation of what is God, what is Man and the relationship between the two.

Doctrine 'forbids' teaching the laity this basic 'fact'.

The real horror is that in Seminary you are told basically flat out 'Its a con game to keep members coming back to the Church'.

Granted no professor or priest or cleric will say that out right and exactly in those words, but most know that the purpose of Organized Religion is not to save souls, but to collect lots and wealth and have political power over the people. Using their faith to enslave them.

The next time you confront a layman who has strong faith and belief in the nature of Christianity, God and the bible, understand that they are and were purposefully brainwashed to believe X,Y,Z. Their need for spiritual food, their desire to have 'faith' has been used against them to insure that The Church (whatever church they are a member of) has them paying a tithe and coming back and filling that church's agenda in politics and society.

Your typical Christian is as much a victim as those who they bible bash.

First, let me say I like your posts. You are clear and well thought out. Your perspective appears center-right, mine is center left.

I know a little more than the average person about religion. My parents and six other families started the Presbyterian church in the community I grew up in. Over the years I have known GLBT members of the Presbytry. There is even a piano bar dominated by gay ministers out in the San Fernando Valley. They are fine folks and as much fun as anyone else.

To begin with people are welcome to spend their money on any form of entertainment they like. This is freedom. However, anytime a group with a tax-exempt status ventures into politics I have a serious problem known as separation of church and State.

Take as an example the Roman Catholic Church.

1). Against a woman's right to choose and finances opposition to abortion.

2), Against GLBT rights while their priests are molesting teenage boys. If I was a parent of a molested child, I would resolve the matter personally with a possible Second Amendment solution. Turn the other cheek my ass.

3). Employed actor Martin Sheen to do commercials against "right to die" initiatives in the State of Washington, (and fortunately failed). If I have a fatal illness like the oh-so painful pancreatic cancer, and I want to end my life to avoid an excruciating death that is my RIGHT in Oregon and Washington State. It would be in the other 48 States if religion had its proper muzzle. Contact Compassion and Choices for further information https://www.compassionandchoices.org/sslpage.aspx or read the book Final Exit. by Derek Humphrey. Final Exit explains the helium method and how you can do yourself in at home painlessly in :30 for under $200.

4). Finances safe houses for illegal aliens all the way from South America to the United States - now get this - the Catholic Church enjoys a tax free status while encouraging illegals to break American immigration laws!

I say that if religion gets a tax exemption for politicking and their "entertainment," then there should be no tax on alcohol or movie tickets. At least motion picture directors admit their fiction. A little water into wine anyone?

Bullsh*t

[Pix]

1. Don't know, don't care. Sure, I'm idly curious, but I figure it's as beyond my comprehension as it is beyond the comprehension of an ant or spider. Not that I have anything against people (especially scientists) who are driven to explore these questions.

2. Charles Fort had the perfect rhetorical question for this, IMO: ""If there is a universal mind, must it be sane?"

I've had some experiences with gods and the paranormal that keep me from being a total skeptic, however. But if there's an omnipotent and omniscient "divine mind" that encompasses everything then we are incapable of understanding It, and It would not have a human perspective and human morality would not apply to it.

Also, even though I'm agnostic and accept that gods could exist, that doesn't mean we should worship them. If they NEED our worship then I suspect some kind of exploitation is going on and we're being used as cattle by them. There are sources both modern and ancient that promote this idea as well. Just to be clear I'm not saying that if there are gods then they are bad for us, but it's a possibility worth considering. Though I WILL say that any god that DEMANDS our worship does not deserve it.

Normally I don't think about things like this but you seem interested so there it is.

3. Cosmologically speaking we are insignificant. However, as human beings we don't have a cosmological perspective and can have lives that are meaningful as human beings, so as a human I don't say we're insignificant.

If there's a "consciousness" of the cosmos itself I doubt it's anymore aware of us than we are of our individual cells (and that's actually a pretty poor analogy, but closest I can come up with spur of the moment). We have no objective idea how such a consciousness would work so I don't feel any need to waste time thinking too hard about it. Back when I was much more into mental masturbation like this I'd sometimes contemplate such things but I quickly found more interesting things (more akin to science fiction than religion & occultism) to think about.

4. Long answer made short: a little of A and a little of B. I'm not going to explore this question further as I'd be here all night and making multiple posts if I did.

Hmm, I just looked at your answer and I'll say that works for me.

5. Nihilists are pretty much correct IMO, though practically speaking I'm not a nihilist. Since life doesn't mean anything then we can invent any meaning we want. As we are social animals I hold to the "Golden Rule" based on that we do better to agree not to hurt each other than to hurt each other whenever we want.

But there is so much that modifies this that it's impossible for me to answer it in detail. As just one example, killing is bad but sometimes killing becomes necessary such as in self-defense against violent attack. But this doesn't make killing good anymore than losing one's limb to prevent death by gangrene makes amputation good, but it does make it excusable, a lesser evil than the alternative. But in general we don't kill each other because we don't want to be killed. And then what do we do about those who choose to kill without just cause anyway? We have to harm them (such as imprisoning them) if our arbitrary (if preferred, IMO) morals are to prevail, and it causes greater harm to refuse to harm blatant murderers (but then what of wars, some of which are justifiable IMO but include horrendous actions and I don't really see as heroic, just sometimes sadly necessary--though more often than not it's a sham).

This is another one I'd be up all night making multiple posts until I was exhausted if I wanted to explain all the details and factors.

6. I'm sure you means what happens to our consciousness after death. I suspect oblivion. If there is "life after death" I doubt it's anything like what we imagine. I've heard some interesting ideas that spirits (that can survive bodily death) can create all kinds of "planes of existence" by attracting spirits of similar kind to themselves (like they all "vibrate" at a spiritual frequency so they tune into each other) so that those who are benevolent are drawn to other benevolent spirits, those who are malicious are drawn to other malicious spirits, and essentially create a realm based on their own ideals making for many heavens and hells designed by their own inhabitants. This is just mental masturbation of course and choose not to waste too much time on it.

[WesHollywood]

Like my Grandpop says, "When it comes to religion, if you've got the Golden Rule down, you pretty much have the whole thing."