Is it wrong to demonize "Rosary Rattlers" as they are sworn enemies of GLBT?

[WesHollywood]

I think not, and here is why.

1). Abortion is the law of the land, yet Catholics work politically to destroy it because of their narrow views, completely disrespecting the separation of Church and State.

2). The Catholic Church hired actor Martin Sheen to do television commercials against the Right to Die in Washington State, and 17 other locals while enjoying a tax exempt status.

3). The position of the Roman Catholic Church against GLBT Rights goes without saying.

4). The Roman Catholic Church funds illegal alien Safe Houses making it easier for illegals to break American Immigration laws.

5). Encouraged Mexican Americans to vote against GLBT on Prop 8, after we had lent support to their human rights efforts.

6). Pedophile priests go virtually unpunished for stealing the innocence of teenage alter boys.

7). Many rosary rattlers blindly follow Papist doctrine without thinking for themselves.

I propose we hit these frauds with every dirty trick GLBT has.

Pope Benny 16.

[LateBloomer]

I'm a practicing Catholic.

I'm secure enough in my faith to admit the Church is wrong on a lot of contemporary issues.

And they've been wrong in the past.

And they will be wrong in the future.

The Church is an organization of men and women, mostly men, and therefore they are flawed and commit sin.

Christ said (of those nailing Him to the cross): "Forgive them, they know not what they do."

I follow Christ, not politics. Don't confuse the two.

[Bowyn Aerrow]

As nearly everyone knows by now, I had a strong interest in "religion" in my youth. I did seminary and ministry for a longish spell to get a doctorate in Ministry. My ultimate goal was to become a friar in the Anglican St. Francis of Assisi Order (First Order).

In seminary I got the first blow to my 'religious convictions' when they all but came out and said 'Religion is a fraud, a con-game'. They do temper this fraud of mankind with the belief that they are the 'best thing' on earth to feed the masses with spiritual food.
> Much like politicians believe that they have the best method available to lead the people, while knowing full well the system is corrupt.
> Just like Economics folk will tell you 'yeah, capitalism really sucks - but its the best system we have to work with'.

No system of man is 'perfect'. We are imperfect creatures, thus anything we make as a system is going to have its flaws. While that may sound like just an excuse, there is a lot of truth to this.

You are going up against about two thousand years of doctrine and tradition. There is a lot of momentum behind such an old tradition. Its not like such and organization can swiftly be turned around and set on a new course.

Secular society changes course nearly at will, but even then it takes generations for new ideas to be embraced and accepted, and then in stages.

Take the simple concept of 'All Men are Created Equal' - when such a notion first came up, all men were white, males who owned land. If you were female, non-white, and rented you were not equal.

It took a century or two for the idea to include renters (non-land owners) and 'non-whites' and another 60 years before women were included in this 'all men are created equal' ideology. In practice, may still believe and behave that women and non-whites are not 'equal'.

The Churches of mankind, the many various denominations are under a bit of slower change. Pope John Paul made 'sweeping change' in politics and interpretation of Doctrine and The Bible - granted to the laity those were minor insignificant changes, however under the scope of 2K years of heavy tradition the scale of those changes are massive. Pope Benedict has also tried to make 'sweeping changes' relative to the massive nature of the Church.

http://vox-nova.com/2010/11/20/did-pope-...t-condoms/

Pope Benedict has suggested that “condoms can be justified in some cases.”
(snip)
“There may be a basis in the case of some individuals, as perhaps when a male prostitute uses a condom, where this can be a first step in the direction of a moralization, a first assumption of responsibility, on the way toward recovering an awareness that not everything is allowed and that one cannot do whatever one wants. But it is not really the way to deal with the evil of HIV infection. That can really lie only in a humanization of sexuality.

Interviewer Peter Seewald: Are you saying, then, that the Catholic Church is actually not opposed in principle to the use of condoms?

“She of course does not regard it as a real or moral solution, but, in this or that case, there can be, nonetheless, in the intention of reducing the infection, a first step in the movement toward a different way, a more human way, of living sexuality.”

Read the site for details, it is really a minor thing.

For such an old organization of its size, such a 'suggestion' is sweeping change. Here is a pope that is 'admitting' that the old system is failing and that it needs to start rethinking of all things human sexuality - granted just the use of condoms to prevent the spread of disease. This does open the door for using other forms of contraceptive - later - most likely much later - down the road.

Up to this point the Church's stance was one of celibacy, however the Church is reckoning with the reality that celibacy doesn't work with human nature, and its even proposing using a know contraceptive to halt the spread of disease. This is huge - few people can understand how huge this small 'suggestion' is.

This is how the Church Works. Minor, tiny baby steps in a direction.

Yes it is a slow process, Yes it will take a generation or two for it to adapt, but it is changing. A lot more than most people are comfortable with.

Traditional Church is what people expect, if it changes too much their faith is shattered.

[WesHollywood]

I'm a practicing Catholic.

I'm secure enough in my faith to admit the Church is wrong on a lot of contemporary issues.

And they've been wrong in the past.

And they will be wrong in the future.

The Church is an organization of men and women, mostly men, and therefore they are flawed and commit sin.

Christ said (of those nailing Him to the cross): "Forgive them, they know not what they do."

I follow Christ, not politics. Don't confuse the two.

It is a shame your religion does not follow your lead on this. As GLBT I see it as "You are either with us, or against us." Which is more important, your Pope or the politics of the way you make love? We are all forced to live in a world with priorities.

[WesHollywood]

As nearly everyone knows by now, I had a strong interest in "religion" in my youth. I did seminary and ministry for a longish spell to get a doctorate in Ministry. My ultimate goal was to become a friar in the Anglican St. Francis of Assisi Order (First Order).

In seminary I got the first blow to my 'religious convictions' when they all but came out and said 'Religion is a fraud, a con-game'. They do temper this fraud of mankind with the belief that they are the 'best thing' on earth to feed the masses with spiritual food.
> Much like politicians believe that they have the best method available to lead the people, while knowing full well the system is corrupt.
> Just like Economics folk will tell you 'yeah, capitalism really sucks - but its the best system we have to work with'.

No system of man is 'perfect'. We are imperfect creatures, thus anything we make as a system is going to have its flaws. While that may sound like just an excuse, there is a lot of truth to this.

You are going up against about two thousand years of doctrine and tradition. There is a lot of momentum behind such an old tradition. Its not like such and organization can swiftly be turned around and set on a new course.

Secular society changes course nearly at will, but even then it takes generations for new ideas to be embraced and accepted, and then in stages.

Take the simple concept of 'All Men are Created Equal' - when such a notion first came up, all men were white, males who owned land. If you were female, non-white, and rented you were not equal.

It took a century or two for the idea to include renters (non-land owners) and 'non-whites' and another 60 years before women were included in this 'all men are created equal' ideology. In practice, may still believe and behave that women and non-whites are not 'equal'.

The Churches of mankind, the many various denominations are under a bit of slower change. Pope John Paul made 'sweeping change' in politics and interpretation of Doctrine and The Bible - granted to the laity those were minor insignificant changes, however under the scope of 2K years of heavy tradition the scale of those changes are massive. Pope Benedict has also tried to make 'sweeping changes' relative to the massive nature of the Church.

http://vox-nova.com/2010/11/20/did-pope-...t-condoms/

Read the site for details, it is really a minor thing.

For such an old organization of its size, such a 'suggestion' is sweeping change. Here is a pope that is 'admitting' that the old system is failing and that it needs to start rethinking of all things human sexuality - granted just the use of condoms to prevent the spread of disease. This does open the door for using other forms of contraceptive - later - most likely much later - down the road.

Up to this point the Church's stance was one of celibacy, however the Church is reckoning with the reality that celibacy doesn't work with human nature, and its even proposing using a know contraceptive to halt the spread of disease. This is huge - few people can understand how huge this small 'suggestion' is.

This is how the Church Works. Minor, tiny baby steps in a direction.

Yes it is a slow process, Yes it will take a generation or two for it to adapt, but it is changing. A lot more than most people are comfortable with.

Traditional Church is what people expect, if it changes too much their faith is shattered.

As is usually the case with you Bowyn, your post is thoughtful, and well considered. Thank you.

One question.

In the reality of hard-ball politics, there appears to be no room for compromise with the Roman Catholic Church on the issue of GLBT marriage. GLBT has long been in a FULL COURT PRESS on this issue.

If GLBT has to destroy the Roman Catholic Church with mean spirited demonizing to make GLBT Marriage the law across the United States, would you approve?

[Genersis]

It is a shame your religion does not follow your lead on this. As GLBT I see it as "You are either with us, or against us." Which is more important, your Pope or the politics of the way you make love? We are all forced to live in a world with priorities.

LateBloomer seems to be doing just fine without taking sides.mile:
All Christians follow Christianity slightly differently. Many with at least a few views against the mainstream.
It's not really an either/or kinda thing.
But i guess it's up to LateBloomer if he wants to entertain your question.

[LateBloomer]

It is a shame your religion does not follow your lead on this. As GLBT I see it as "You are either with us, or against us." Which is more important, your Pope or the politics of the way you make love? We are all forced to live in a world with priorities.

I don't worship the pope.

I respect the position, but he's human, and therefore a sinner.

I agree, the problem with most Christian religions is they forget the basic teachings of Christ.

It's more complicated than this and one day, maybe over a glass of wine, I can fully explain how I approach my faith, my sexuality and my politics.

And by the way, I wouldn't be the first to offer that God is Love.

God = Love.

[WesHollywood]

LateBloomer seems to be doing just fine without taking sides.mile:
All Christians follow Christianity slightly differently. Many with at least a few views against the mainstream.
It's not really an either/or kinda thing.
But i guess it's up to LateBloomer if he wants to entertain your question.

Thank you for your opinion.

If there is middle ground here, please share your thoughts.

When voters go to the ballot box, unlike this graphic there is no choice called "maybe." GLBT did not go to battle on Proposition 8 as a public relations party. This effort has been "blood and guts" politicking. Heavy personal prices have been paid by GLBT individuals on this issue. Facts conclusively show the Roman Catholic Church is an obstacle to GLBT marriage rights. Should GLBT destroy the Roman Catholic Church by any legal means necessary to prevail? Actually GLBT are already doing that.

[Bowyn Aerrow]

As is usually the case with you Bowyn, your post is thoughtful, and well considered. Thank you.

One question.

In the reality of hard-ball politics, there appears to be no room for compromise with the Roman Catholic Church on the issue of GLBT marriage. GLBT has long been in a FULL COURT PRESS on this issue.

If GLBT has to destroy the Roman Catholic Church with mean spirited demonizing to make GLBT Marriage the law across the United States, would you approve?

No

There is always room for compromise. Marriage in a secular sense should be able to exist along side of marriage in the religious sense. the Church fears that it will be forced to make 'gay marriages' which goes against about 1.5K years of tradition (It had same gender marriage way back when it was first formed).

There is no need to destroy the church. While it does have its dark history which so many focus on, the truth is that it has also been a bright beacon in a dark world and has performed a good deal of 'good'.

[Genersis]

Thank you for your opinion.

If there is middle ground here, please share your thoughts.

When voters go to the ballot box there is no choice called "either/or." GLBT did not go to battle on Proposition 8 as a public relations party. This effort has been "blood and guts" politicking. Heavy personal prices have been paid by GLBT. Facts conclusively show the Roman Catholic Church is an obstacle to GLBT marriage rights. Should GLBT destroy the Roman Catholic Church by any legal means necessary to prevail? Actually GLBT are already doing that.

No.
It's not necessary.
And if we did, it would generate more negative feelings towards the the GLBT than positive.
What we need to do is strip religions of their discriminatory and political power.
Not outright destroy them.
You can't remove a belief system from someone, so i can't see HOW we can destroy the Catholic Church.
As long as the belief system exists, the church will to some degree.
Removing belief systems from people on purpose is just not nice.
I understand most religions hate the GLBT's guts, but making them hate us more by trying to destroy their religion isn't going to help us.

How are we destroying it now anyhow?
The only way i can think of is by fracturing it into those who support GLBT and those who don't.
That's not destroying, it's just creating yet more denominations. This has been happening for centuries anyway.