Is it wrong to demonize "Rosary Rattlers" as they are sworn enemies of GLBT?

[WesHollywood]

I don't worship the pope.

I respect the position, but he's human, and therefore a sinner.

I agree, the problem with most Christian religions is they forget the basic teachings of Christ.

It's more complicated than this and one day, maybe over a glass of wine, I can fully explain how I approach my faith, my sexuality and my politics.

And by the way, I wouldn't be the first to offer that God is Love.

God = Love.

Please.......

The Roman Catholic Church in the United States has chosen to ignore the U. S. Constitution's understanding of the separation of Church and State. The church PLAYS POLITICS while enjoying a tax free status at the expense of American voters/taxpayers. Politically the church is in the way of the direction GLBT AND GLBT FRIENDLY UNITED STATES CITIZENS want to go. This is unacceptable.

Perhaps GLBT should consider challenging the tax free status of the Roman Catholic Church, and registering them properly as a 'political lobby?'

This thread is not a philosophical romp through biblical philosophy. This is a political thread. I seek a simple "yes or no" on taking GLBT marriage rights to the limit with Roman Catholics. Benny 16 and friends have continually tried, and in some cases succeeded, in crushing GLBT political efforts. You are in a GLBT web site. It is perfectly reasonable to ask if you stand with GLBT or Roman Catholics. Please choose one.

Does changing the graphic help clarify the question of GLBT marriage?

[WesHollywood]

No.
It's not necessary.
And if we did, it would generate more negative feelings towards the the GLBT than positive.
What we need to do is strip religions of their discriminatory and political power.
Not outright destroy them.
You can't remove a belief system from someone, so i can't see HOW we can destroy the Catholic Church.
As long as the belief system exists, the church will to some degree.
Removing belief systems from people on purpose is just not nice.
I understand most religions hate the GLBT's guts, but making them hate us more by trying to destroy their religion isn't going to help us.

How are we destroying it now anyhow?
The only way i can think of is by fracturing it into those who support GLBT and those who don't.
That's not destroying, it's just creating yet more denominations. This has been happening for centuries anyway.

If you would like, I can access some horrifying examples of the Roman Catholic Church destroying GLBT lives.

Is turn about fair play? Unlike Catholics GLBT are not in the "turn the other cheek" business.

We in advertising/politics, like it or not, are like the guy in a TV show who finally gets the drop on the bad guy. Then he shows compassion and lets him up. And is rewarded by being killed himself. GLBT has learned this lesson with the Roman Catholic Church.

Meanwhile big doings at the Vatican, traditional Catholics and modern Catholics have BOTH been reprimanded by the Pope. There is a serious wedge growing in the Roman Catholic Church that, hopefully, we could help along. We are talking 1.2 Billion Roman Catholics in Papal crisis. Sweet, huh!

So concerned American CITIZENS drive a wedge into the turmoil. The Catholic Church has been in and out of the news about pedophile priests. Now it is reaching the Cardinal, and perhaps Bishop levels.

Then we have the Penn State coaching scandal. Imagine if news coverage of Catholic priests exploded the way things are at Penn State? Nice, neat, the Catholic Church shoots itself in the foot while GLBT are on Ellen. lighting candles, and singing Kumbqya! Why should we get our hands dirty? GLBT did not create the crisis at the Catholic Church. But, we know how to help GLBT friendlies manage it! Of course this is just speculation, an opinion on my part of what could happen. I have no inside information.

The only question that remains is timing.
Christmas season, I doubt it, closer to the 2012 election.

[LateBloomer]

Please.......

The Roman Catholic Church in the United States has chosen to ignore the U. S. Constitution's understanding of the separation of Church and State. The church PLAYS POLITICS while enjoying a tax free status at the expense of American voters/taxpayers. Politically the church is in the way of the direction GLBT AND GLBT FRIENDLY UNITED STATES CITIZENS want to go. This is unacceptable.

Perhaps GLBT should consider challenging the tax free status of the Roman Catholic Church, and registering them properly as a 'political lobby?'

This thread is not a philosophical romp through biblical philosophy. This is a political thread. I seek a simple "yes or no" on taking GLBT marriage rights to the limit with Roman Catholics. Benny 16 and friends have continually tried, and in some cases succeeded, in crushing GLBT political efforts. You are in a GLBT web site. It is perfectly reasonable to ask if you stand with GLBT or Roman Catholics. Please choose one.

No, no my friend, I won't have my arm twisted and forced to chose sides.



As it says in my bio: I'm a walking, talking contradiction. And I'm quite happy as such.

In all honesty, I think the Church is RIGHT to only perform "straight" marriages. It's their church, if you don't like it, don't join.

But I don't appreciate how the various "Bible thumpers" try to massage state and federal laws to make life more "comfortable" for who's sitting around their dinner table.

In short, I think gays should be allowed to marry in a civil ceremony at the state level, but it's up to the church's to decide how to practice their sacrament of marriage.

See? That seems to be a contradiction but if the ZEALOTS on both sides would just RELENT a little bit (drop the politics) we could have a workable solution, almost like a Two State Solution in Israel and Palestine.

Alas, I digress.



You're a smart guy, your interests and thoughts are refined WAY beyond your stereotypical 22 yr old (In fact, sometimes I wonder if you're putting us on). I hope you can see how someone can live as a gay practicing Catholic--and maybe if there were more, the persecution would end.

Best,

[Pix]

I hold a lot of antipathy toward the Vatican, though I'm more neutral about general members, many of whom seem to be like this:



Sen. Kerry is Catholic but is pro-choice, and when the DOMA originally passed he called it "gay bashing." He'd eventually come to support the DOMA, but that seems to be so he could feel electable rather than pressure from the Church as he retained his pro-choice views even when several Catholic churches said they'd refuse to give him communion because of it and it seemed to cost him a lot of Catholic votes.

But I do recall back when Prop 8 was for vote and at the time I lived 2 blocks from a Catholic Church. They held a rally in support of Prop 8 and there were cars parked back to back for blocks (including in front of my home).

Still, it seems the Christian Right (mostly made up of Protestant evangelicals) was the actual primary force behind Prop 8 with nearly all other Christian organizations (I recall only one small church opposing it, one known for its liberal stances), including Catholics, helping (and also Mormons, which I consider Christian though others don't).

Tip: if you wanna hurt Catholics then I'd think the best strategy would be to manipulate the other denominations to do it for you. So many of them, from the Eastern Orthodox to many sects within the Christian Right, hate them for various reasons (Chick tracts even paint them as Satanists). They have a lot more political clout to do it with, the majority of bystanders and even plenty of politicians (who seem to prefer evangelicals over Catholics) will go along with it (where they wouldn't go along with us), and it means no backlash against us. Of course the vast majority of Christendom is against us anyway, but getting them to fight each other might take some pressure off of us, hopefully until the more liberal elements can change the churches from within.

[WesHollywood]

No, no my friend, I won't have my arm twisted and forced to chose sides.



As it says in my bio: I'm a walking, talking contradiction. And I'm quite happy as such.

In all honesty, I think the Church is RIGHT to only perform "straight" marriages. It's their church, if you don't like it, don't join.

But I don't appreciate how the various "Bible thumpers" try to massage state and federal laws to make life more "comfortable" for who's sitting around their dinner table.

In short, I think gays should be allowed to marry in a civil ceremony at the state level, but it's up to the church's to decide how to practice their sacrament of marriage.

See? That seems to be a contradiction but if the ZEALOTS on both sides would just RELENT a little bit (drop the politics) we could have a workable solution, almost like a Two State Solution in Israel and Palestine.

Alas, I digress.



You're a smart guy, your interests and thoughts are refined WAY beyond your stereotypical 22 yr old (In fact, sometimes I wonder if you're putting us on). I hope you can see how someone can live as a gay practicing Catholic--and maybe if there were more, the persecution would end.

Best,

Remember no decision is a decision.

"If ya ain;t with us, ur agin us."

[East]

I think the pomp and pageantry and above all IMAGERY in the Catholic Church illustrates the worship of and the desire for power and control which is also the driving force behind pedophiles and rapists so I think the church represents great evil ...even if I did not acknowledge the first part how can you ignore the manner is which they dealt with the very serious crimes against children!

...and the Pope was a member of the Nazi Youth? WTF?

But...locally here they feed homeless people most nights and provide emergency assistance and shelter for homeless...lots of other programs...so I recognize and applaud their work...

I love God myself and I do not let ANYONE define God for me. I have always felt God and I love my relationship with God. I believe God is about love. I believe God does not want you to live in shame and fear so I am at odds with the Catholic Church and most religions as they use shame and fear as tools to control their followers but I think the practicing Catholics should be seen as individuals just like everyone else.

...so...Middle...I guess

[LateBloomer]

Remember no decision is a decision.

Hmm?

:confused:

Like I said, my spirituality, my sexuality and my politics are more complicated than I can sum up in a post on the internet.

I've gone full circle in my life, from young believer to militant atheist and now faithfully mellow.

I'm happy like this, I can see both sides of the discussion. I remember what it was like to be young and full of piss and vinegar. There's a time for that. But WITH TIME, comes perspective. And that's what we need most of all.

[Bowyn Aerrow]

...and the Pope was a member of the Nazi Youth? WTF?

He was a minor and was forced by law to be a member. His father as local police officer was, most likely, made an offer he couldn't refuse to see to his children participating.

If he had joined the SS or other military groups, then we could question his actions. This is not one of those up for question, he was forced to, most likely on penalty of death of other family members to comply.

[East]

He was a minor and was forced by law to be a member. His father as local police officer was, most likely, made an offer he couldn't refuse to see to his children participating.

If he had joined the SS or other military groups, then we could question his actions. This is not one of those up for question, he was forced to, most likely on penalty of death of other family members to comply.

I do actually understand that completely but my opinion is still WTF?

Alot of the effects of my youth are still very much present in me...both good and bad...as they are building blocks. I am not comfortable with someone who was brainwashed and raised by Nazis in his formative years to be in charge of anything really...much less the spiritual welfare of so many people....I see people who have struggled for 50/60/70/80 years with the psychological imprints they had as a youth. This pope has not done much to show me he has overcome his own psychological imprints. That is just my opinion of course.

The church can make that choice and they did...but it is still a WTF decision for me.

[LateBloomer]

I do actually understand that completely but my opinion is still WTF?

Alot of the effects of my youth are still very much present in me...both good and bad...as they are building blocks. I am not comfortable with someone who was brainwashed and raised by Nazis in his formative years to be in charge of anything really...much less the spiritual welfare of so many people....I see people who have struggled for 50/60/70/80 years with the psychological imprints they had as a youth. This pope has not done much to show me he has overcome his own psychological imprints. That is just my opinion of course.

The church can make that choice and they did...but it is still a WTF decision for me.

This pope wasn't chosen for his ability to warm hearts. He was chosen because he's an academic and a formidable one at that.

Right or wrong, that's the POLITICS of the situation.

It has very little to do with what Christ taught. We need to separate the two.