Is it wrong to demonize "Rosary Rattlers" as they are sworn enemies of GLBT?

[East]

This pope wasn't chosen for his ability to warm hearts. He was chosen because he's an academic and a formidable one at that.

Right or wrong, that's the POLITICS of the situation.

It has very little to do with what Christ taught. We need to separate the two.

Just to be clear...I understand the Church can make whatever decision it likes based on whatever criteria they deem worthy......I do not belong to the church and normally I would have no opinion except the church INSISTS on inserting itself into my life so they have made it personal and I am certainly going to have an opinion of the church and the Pope and I have major red flags...

His statements about gays being the greatest threat to humanity (or something along those lines) show me his Nazi Youth in fact DID have an effect on him. Gay people wore pink triangles and were put in their ovens...did he not learn anything? Hitler thought we were a threat too,. He is an evil little man in my opinion. I would be worried if I was him having to meet the actual God after playing God here on earth.

[WesHollywood]

....

......But...locally here they feed homeless people most nights and provide emergency assistance and shelter for homeless...lots of other programs...so I recognize and applaud their work.......

The real question with any charity is of every dollar donated, what percent goes to the charitable causes.

The Roman Catholic Church has refused to reveal income and real estate holdings to the COURT SYSTEM. We have no idea what they absorb and what they contribute. What I do know is that the tuition for the Catholic school in my neighborhood is $6,300 a year, and Cathedrals are expensive to heat!

[Bowyn Aerrow]

Correct, people can't change. Might as well round them up and shoot them when they do one thing wrong. Definitely can't expect them to break their basic programming and be something else...

[East]

Correct, people can't change. Might as well round them up and shoot them when they do one thing wrong. Definitely can't expect them to break their basic programming and be something else...

Huh? Some people can and do overcome their circumstances and programming...some people dont'...some people partly overcome their circumstances. His CURRENT behavior and the CURRENT behavior of the institution he represents is consistent with HITLER and his youth. That is NOT change. The man actively seeks to discriminate against me. You can make excuses for him...I don''t have to.

EDIT: I have been clean and sober for 24 years now and I am intimately aware of the dynamics necessary to overcome programming and circumstances...and choices.

[WesHollywood]

Hmm?

:confused:

Like I said, my spirituality, my sexuality and my politics are more complicated than I can sum up in a post on the internet.

I've gone full circle in my life, from young believer to militant atheist and now faithfully mellow.

I'm happy like this, I can see both sides of the discussion. I remember what it was like to be young and full of piss and vinegar. There's a time for that. But WITH TIME, comes perspective. And that's what we need most of all.

According to your header, you are 43 years old, which tells me you have had adequate time to consider GLBT marriage verses the Roman Catholic Church. You have made up your mind, and you don't even know it. You have been brainwashed by Catholicism.

You believe the Pope over what your own heart and body tells you. So, on my tally sheet, when push comes to shove - and it has - you are anti-GLBT marriage. GLBT can not count on you to vote in your own self-interest, let alone that of your sisters and brothers.

You are one of those, "I want to play, but I won't pay with a commitment" types. "I am too weak to think for myself - good thing I have my Pope to decide for me!" I speak for many who are tired of paying the political freight so guys like you can grab a little cock on the side when you want it!

Hope I am I making that closet a little tight for you?

Hey, that door does open. Call the Pope,
and see if you can step out!
Oh, we already know the answer to that one don't we.

[Bowyn Aerrow]

The real question with any charity is of every dollar donated, what percent goes to the charitable causes.

The Roman Catholic Church has refused to reveal income and real estate holdings to the COURT SYSTEM. We have no idea what they absorb and what they contribute. What I do know is that the tuition for the Catholic school in my neighborhood is $6,300 a year, and Cathedrals are expensive to heat!

A lot of parishes have been closed, the property sold over the years. Parish monies and charitable monies are kept separate. Priest and nuns volunteer their time skills and energy to do charitable good works. Many actually work two jobs a secular one and a religious one. Their secular job pays for their lodging, and is brought back to the church to be redistributed to those parishes that can not afford to keep the heat on.

It would be difficult to actually judge the net worth of the Church. For instance, how much is the Shroud of Turin 'worth'. What about the Last Supper painted on some rectory wall? What about that overly painted ceiling in the Sistine Chapel? How much are these 'things' worth? What is the value to do put on those properties with historic structures - those very cathedrals you are poking fun at?

When it comes to the 'flatware' used in mass, do we value it by its precious metal content, or its history? Cups and saucers made of gold or silver may be worth X by weight, but may have a much greater value depending on its history.

We have over a thousand years of historic value in many of the material items of the Church. Many are considered priceless by museum curators - one of a kind historic pieces that are worth much more than the material they are made of.

A decent chunk of the charity given to The Church (and other religious organizations) is in the form of material goods, food, clothing, blankets, building materials, etc. Another large form of donation is time and skill. How to we value work done by individuals both clerics and laity? Charge by the hour a flat rate? Try to figure out how much each person is worth per hour?

$6,300.00 is cheap, it pays for the text books, the busing, the desks, the heat and maintenance of school rooms, the very rulers that the nuns use to point and click at students ...

Since academic year 2007-2008, funding per pupil for California K-12 public schools has declined by roughly 5 percent, from $8,235 per pupil to $7,693. http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/apr201...-a13.shtml

And for that they are charging YOU a person without kids to raise the money for inferior public school education.

The pricing for education through a Catholic School is comparable to one of the public education system. The only difference is people like me who do not want kids ends up footing the bill for dog's droppings* - er I mean children. Least with the Catholic school system the offending parents are responsible for their brats and it doesn't fall to me to support the education of their children.

How much is a child's education really worth? Considering most will grow up to be worthless consumers, eating and crapping through life, do we decide that they are only worth $1.69, or do we consider the few that will go on to cure cancers, AIDS and invent the next big thing that will revolutionize the world? What value is a life and a brain that is educated?

What value is the life saved, the stomach filled, the shivering back covered in clothing? Can we really place a dollar value on this things?






*http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0100944/quotes

[Bowyn Aerrow]

Huh? Some people can and do overcome their circumstances and programming...some people dont'...some people partly overcome their circumstances. His CURRENT behavior and the CURRENT behavior of the institution he represents is consistent with HITLER and his youth. That is NOT change. The man actively seeks to discriminate against me. You can make excuses for him...I don''t have to.

I'm playing Devil's advocate.

The man represents an organization that is thousands of years old. His views reflects an organization that has held these views well before Hitler and the Nationalist Socialists gathered and plotted in dark cellars and back alleys.

He is ethically obliged to uphold the 'spirit' of Church Doctrine. It's his Job as the Pontiff.

While he is the Voice of the Church, He is not 'God' - he can't walk in and reorganize the church - he would loose his job (if not his position as a member of the clergy).

You fail to understand how the church works as an organization, not only as a political organization but as a social one. the Pope answers to 1.18 billion individuals who find peace and solace in a Church that holds strictly to tradition.

[Bowyn Aerrow]

He stated earlier his view:

In all honesty, I think the Church is RIGHT to only perform "straight" marriages. It's their church, if you don't like it, don't join.

Separation of church and state is a two way street, It means the church doesn't push politics at the same time the politics can pressure the Church into doing stuff against its belief system.

If Gay Marriage was made legal, there is a very serious concern, a valid concern, that the Government will force christian denominations to perform gay marriage.

There are already people trying to use the government to force the Church(es) to do secular things instead of changing their brand of faith or working inside their church to change the view points of that church.

There is a grey area here. Make Gay Marriage a Secular contract, let each church decide if it wants to 'honor' that contract and do gay marriages.

Marriage by law is a Secular legal contract, that gives secular, legal rights to the couple.

Vote no for forcing religious organizations to perform gay marriages, Vote yes for Secular Gay Marriage.

According to your header, you are 43 years old, which tells me you have had adequate time to consider GLBT marriage verses the Roman Catholic Church. You have made up your mind, and you don't even know it. You have been brainwashed by Catholicism.

You believe the Pope over what your own heart and body tells you. So, on my tally sheet, when push comes to shove - and it has - you are anti-GLBT marriage. GLBT can not count on you to vote in your own self-interest, let alone that of your sisters and brothers.

You are one of those, "I want to play, but I won't pay with a commitment" types. "I am too weak to think for myself - good thing I have my Pope to decide for me!" I speak for many who are tired of paying the political freight so guys like you can grab a little cock on the side when you want it!

Hope I am I making that closet a little tight for you?

Hey, that door does open. Call the Pope,
and see if you can step out!
Oh, we already know the answer to that one don't we.

[East]

I'm playing Devil's advocate.

The man represents an organization that is thousands of years old. His views reflects an organization that has held these views well before Hitler and the Nationalist Socialists gathered and plotted in dark cellars and back alleys.

He is ethically obliged to uphold the 'spirit' of Church Doctrine. It's his Job as the Pontiff.

While he is the Voice of the Church, He is not 'God' - he can't walk in and reorganize the church - he would loose his job (if not his position as a member of the clergy).

You fail to understand how the church works as an organization, not only as a political organization but as a social one. the Pope answers to 1.18 billion individuals who find peace and solace in a Church that holds strictly to tradition.

Well...the man does have a choice....he is a leader and a leader can lead if they choose...or remain satus quo. I have seen leadership changes in many churches regarding GLBT people. I think of MLK, JFK, Mandela, Ghandi...as leaders with vision and courage. I think of the Pope as a Nazi Youth who never really became much else emotionally if he can condone the discrimination against gays as he does...he learned nothing from his youth as evidenced by his statements. Someone who truly understood the horror of which they participate in actually might have made a great leader.

Bottom Line...he is chosen to be the "voice" of the church. As history repeats itself I would value any leader who understands this and acts accordingly to move forward. If the members of his church value his leadership and his leadership includes statements that suggest gays are a threat to humanity then the institution should be judged accordingly.

Also...he fails to really lead his followers into the present because in poll after poll many Catholics support gay marriage...and are pro choice...so he is leading a select group of his followers. If anything..his youth should have shown him the error of thinking like he does.

[nullnaught]

Please.......

This thread is not a philosophical romp through biblical philosophy. This is a political thread. I seek a simple "yes or no" on taking GLBT marriage rights to the limit with Roman Catholics. Benny 16 and friends have continually tried, and in some cases succeeded, in crushing GLBT political efforts. You are in a GLBT web site. It is perfectly reasonable to ask if you stand with GLBT or Roman Catholics. Please choose one.

Does changing the graphic help clarify the question of GLBT marriage?

An emphatic Yes.