East Wrote:Well...the man does have a choice....he is a leader and a leader can lead if they choose...or remain satus quo. I have seen leadership changes in many churches regarding GLBT people. I think of MLK, JFK, Manela, Ghandi...as leaders with vision and courage. I think of the Pope as a Nazi Youth who never really became much else emotionally if he can condone the discrimination against gays as he does...he learned nothing from his youth as evidenced by his statements. Someone who truly understood the horror of which they participate in actually might have made a great leader.
Bottom Line...he is chosen to be the "voice" of the church. As history repeats itself I would value any leader who understands this and acts accordingly to move forward. If the members of his church value his leadership and his leadership includes statements that suggest gays are a threat to humanity then the institution should be judged accordingly.
Also...he fails to really lead his followers into the present because in poll after poll many Catholics support gay marriage...and are pro choice...so he is leading a select group of his followers. If anything..his youth should have shown him the error of thinking like he does.
No he does not have a choice. The Church is not dictatorship, he has to appeal to the bishops and cardinals and present a face of established tradition to the laity.
Pope John Paul II was elected to the papal seat as a 'young man' and was given a lot of head room to make lots of changes in the church. His successor was elected as an old man, who promises to not serve that long, providing the church with a bit of space to 'breath' and adapt to the 'sweeping' changes of Paul II. After this Pope the next one will most likely be a young 'liberal' man who will once again proceed with many more changes.
This is how the Church Operates. No its not a perfect system yes its slower than molasses in January, but its a system that does work.
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White Catholics More Supportive
White mainline Protestants and white Catholics have become more supportive of gay marriage, though virtually all of the change in opinion among both groups has come among those who attend services relatively infrequently.
About half (49%) of white mainline Protestants support same-sex marriage while 38% oppose this. This is a reversal of opinion from the past two years when 40% favored and 49% opposed allowing gays and lesbians to marry legally. Just 35% of white mainline Protestants who attend church at least once a week favor same-sex marriage, nearly the same percentage as in 2008-2009 (34%). Among those who attend services less often, support has increased by 11 points (from 42% to 53%).
There has been a similar shift among white Catholics – 49% now favor same-sex marriage while 41% are opposed. Opinion was more evenly divided over the past two years (44% favor, 45% oppose). Here too, support has increased among those who attend services less than weekly, from 51% in 2008-2009 to 59% in 2010.
I know this figures represents White Catholics but may I remind everyone the Latin American Coutnries who are predomintaely Catholic are emerging as the newest participants in Gay Equality...they unamimously supported the UN admendment.
So I ask...who exactly is the Pope "leading" with his backward and hateful and divisionary ideas...ideas he should know better than to represent considering his past. The 49% who favor same sex marraige or the 41% who oppose it?
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Bowyn Aerrow Wrote:No he does not have a choice. The Church is not dictatorship, he has to appeal to the bishops and cardinals and present a face of established tradition to the laity.
Pope John Paul II was elected to the papal seat as a 'young man' and was given a lot of head room to make lots of changes in the church. His successor was elected as an old man, who promises to not serve that long, providing the church with a bit of space to 'breath' and adapt to the 'sweeping' changes of Paul II. After this Pope the next one will most likely be a young 'liberal' man who will once again proceed with many more changes.
This is how the Church Operates. No its not a perfect system yes its slower than molasses in January, but its a system that does work.
I dont' see how these same bishops and cardinals who favor established tradition and who chose this guy..assuming that is the reason...because he possessed this trait...why would they chose a young and liberal man? Are there going to be new bishops and cardinals?
I firmly believe that fear is a tool the church uses and gays have been a great tool for many years...I dont' think they want to give that tool up anytime soon.
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Bowyn Aerrow Wrote:Correct, people can't change. Might as well round them up and shoot them when they do one thing wrong. Definitely can't expect them to break their basic programming and be something else...
Oh, you are not worthy of this straw-man arguement. I don't believe said to shoot him, regardless of what he may want to see. I believe he was saying that the fellow's upbringing was his upbringing, and he hasn't shown any reason to believe he has had a breakthrough as far as overcoming it. I would agree with that and say the church may have veted him better, or had better standards.
Didn't anybody who knew about this think it might not go over well, or would perhaps hold the church up to ridicule? Sure some may understand that he was forced into the org., but that doesn't mean they couldn't have predict the fact wouldn't be used against him and the church anyway. Shouldn't someone have thought of this? Perhaps the church is to arogant to care.
In any event, they chose to make it political. They should loose their tax-free status.
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He is leading The Church.
The doctrine, the interpretation, the centuries of tradition....
This is what this Pope was hired to do... This is why an old, conservative pope was elected - to give the Church time to adapt to the previous changes and wait to see what its parishioners want and need.
He is laying the ground work, again I point to that article about condoms and male prostitutes... Please to note He didn't say 'male prostitution is a sin, wearing condoms is a sin, he is giving an 'opening' for further discussion - Not by him, but by the next Pope, the Cardinals and bishops.
This is how the Church 'deals with' issues.
If it makes a sudden change in its Doctrine policy, suddenly the whole house of cards can be questioned. We can't go there. Seriously if we did the very fabric of the church would be torn apart, followed by the fabric of every other denomination that bases its believes largely on the Catholic model.
East Wrote:White Catholics More Supportive
White mainline Protestants and white Catholics have become more supportive of gay marriage, though virtually all of the change in opinion among both groups has come among those who attend services relatively infrequently.
About half (49%) of white mainline Protestants support same-sex marriage while 38% oppose this. This is a reversal of opinion from the past two years when 40% favored and 49% opposed allowing gays and lesbians to marry legally. Just 35% of white mainline Protestants who attend church at least once a week favor same-sex marriage, nearly the same percentage as in 2008-2009 (34%). Among those who attend services less often, support has increased by 11 points (from 42% to 53%).
There has been a similar shift among white Catholics – 49% now favor same-sex marriage while 41% are opposed. Opinion was more evenly divided over the past two years (44% favor, 45% oppose). Here too, support has increased among those who attend services less than weekly, from 51% in 2008-2009 to 59% in 2010.
I know this figures represents White Catholics but may I remind everyone the Latin American Coutnries who are predomintaely Catholic are emerging as the newest participants in Gay Equality...they unamimously supported the UN admendment.
So I ask...who exactly is the Pope "leading" with his backward and hateful and divisionary ideas...ideas he should know better than to represent considering his past. The 49% who favor same sex marraige or the 41% who oppose it?
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East Wrote:I dont' see how these same bishops and cardinals who favor established tradition and who chose this guy..assuming that is the reason...because he possessed this trait...why would they chose a young and liberal man? Are there going to be new bishops and cardinals?
I firmly believe that fear is a tool the church uses and gays have been a great tool for many years...I dont' think they want to give that tool up anytime soon.
It is how the Church adapts and changes. Sudden changes are a big no-no, sudden change is irreversible, if the church guesses wrong it threatens the very fabric of the church. Little steps have to be taken, we walk a yard or so, stop, take a deep breath, wait and see what happens for a decade, take a few more baby steps.
Large sweeping changes have lead to some terrible things for the Church, you know things like the Inquisition..... Minor changes, minor reinterpretation works best for the organization.
VatIII most likely will address the Gay Issue, and these other issues and may have surprising answers. But like Vatican II, it runs a huge risk of losing many of its members.
41/49% is a huge number - we are talking hundreds of millions.
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Bowyn Aerrow Wrote:He is leading The Church.
If it makes a sudden change in its Doctrine policy, suddenly the whole house of cards can be questioned. We can't go there. Seriously if we did the very fabric of the church would be torn apart, followed by the fabric of every other denomination that bases its believes largely on the Catholic model.
Actually this would be a good thing. People need to get over Christianity. The church may have once been a force for good. I don't believe the good it does now outweighs the bad. I was raised a filthy Catholic.
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nullnaught Wrote:Oh, you are not worthy of this straw-man arguement. I don't believe said to shoot him, regardless of what he may want to see. I believe he was saying that the fellow's upbringing was his upbringing, and he hasn't shown any reason to believe he has had a breakthrough as far as overcoming it. I would agree with that and say the church may have veted him better, or had better standards.
Didn't anybody who knew about this think it might not go over well, or would perhaps hold the church up to ridicule? Sure some may understand that he was forced into the org., but that doesn't mean they couldn't have predict the fact wouldn't be used against him and the church anyway. Shouldn't someone have thought of this? Perhaps the church is to arogant to care.
In any event, they chose to make it political. They should loose their tax-free status.
His years of Service in the Church reflects that he has overcome any potential 'brainwashing' that Hitler Youth may have had on him.
He has published a lot of noteworthy papers and even a book or two http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedi...hy_en.html gives you a idea of the man. Of course if you never read his works you do not get a good understanding of his mind.
The Church made the mistake of thinking that people would understand and have read this man's works instead of condemning him for something that happened to him when he was a kid.
But then we still live in a world where the raped are accused of 'asking for it' and are treated as badly as the rapist.
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Bowyn Aerrow Wrote:His years of Service in the Church reflects that he has overcome any potential 'brainwashing' that Hitler Youth may have had on him.
He has published a lot of noteworthy papers and even a book or two http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedi...hy_en.html gives you a idea of the man. Of course if you never read his works you do not get a good understanding of his mind.
The Church made the mistake of thinking that people would understand and have read this man's works instead of condemning him for something that happened to him when he was a kid.
But then we still live in a world where the raped are accused of 'asking for it' and are treated as badly as the rapist.
O.K., to be fair, I don't know anything about the man beyond the superficial. I admit, I have a blind unreasoning hatred of the church and shouldn't have commented beyond the fact that is was a straw-man arguement.
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Bowyn Aerrow Wrote:He is leading The Church.
The doctrine, the interpretation, the centuries of tradition....
This is what this Pope was hired to do... This is why an old, conservative pope was elected - to give the Church time to adapt to the previous changes and wait to see what its parishioners want and need.
He is laying the ground work, again I point to that article about condoms and male prostitutes... Please to note He didn't say 'male prostitution is a sin, wearing condoms is a sin, he is giving an 'opening' for further discussion - Not by him, but by the next Pope, the Cardinals and bishops.
This is how the Church 'deals with' issues.
If it makes a sudden change in its Doctrine policy, suddenly the whole house of cards can be questioned. We can't go there. Seriously if we did the very fabric of the church would be torn apart, followed by the fabric of every other denomination that bases its believes largely on the Catholic model.
I do understand the point you are making and it is valid in relation to the church and the organization...I understand that...but my own personal dynamics dictate that I ignore and reject their reasons in favor of moving humanity forward.
My response and opinions are due to my own individual life experience and they reflect where I came from and where I have been...
Personally...My grandparents who raised me for almost 5 years were from Germany and I was not allowed to speak German even though we lived in an all German neighborhood in New York . None of the children were. They were immigrants who had plenty of opinions of Hitler...alot of them fled Germany.
They raised me because my mother was violent and I was hospitalized...my father was absent as a member of the Air Force and then College so it was his parents who took me in.
The cornerstone of my recovery was to completely reject Dogma and Tradition and everyone else's expectations. I divorced my parents to the horror of everyone around me who thought I was the devil incarnate for doing so. I am not sorry they are dead though I have actively been trying to embrace forgiveness for them for my own sake. I have no use for dogma and I adopted this philosophy not without great cost...but the freedom was worth the price I paid.
So...using tradition and dogma as an argument with me is never going to have any impact on me but I thank you for a well reasoned and interesting discourse.  mile:
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