Is it wrong to demonize "Rosary Rattlers" as they are sworn enemies of GLBT?

[Bowyn Aerrow]

Wes,

If a vote for yes means to 'destroy' the Church, I have to vote no.

YOU know I disagree with Organized Religion, Doctrine and the politics and the propaganda of these organizations. I left service, turned my back on organized religion for pretty much the things you pointed out in the first post along with facts that scream at the great deception of the Church(es).

However it is an organization that serves over a billion people (Catholic) and over 2.1 billion 'Christians'. Many who would lose that would most likely go 'insane' and do all manner of terrible things.

Like it or not, humans need to believe in some invisible super power in order to behave and survive until they die. It is their faith in some eternal retribution that allows them to believe that the evils - the real evils- of this world 'make sense' for them to pick up the pieces and carry on. Senseless human evil is incomprehensible to most people, they can't deal with it. As long as they believe there is a God with A Plan and that Plan is 'perfect' they can survive.

Faith is expressed in every day to day activity we humans do, it is a comfort for many in a world that is pretty much cold, cruel and heartless. Take that faith away and things would get nasty, fast.

In time the Church will change its stance. No its not your time. But in time it will. The church has changed its stance on so many other issues that it once held near and dear, such as burning witches, such as holding slaves, such as no divorce what-so-ever.

We would be no better than them if we seek to destroy the organization. We need to use gentle pressures and whispered reasoning in order to guide the church into this millennium and beyond.

[nullnaught]

Wes,

If a vote for yes means to 'destroy' the Church, I have to vote no.

YOU know I disagree with Organized Religion, Doctrine and the politics and the propaganda of these organizations. I left service, turned my back on organized religion for pretty much the things you pointed out in the first post along with facts that scream at the great deception of the Church(es).

However it is an organization that serves over a billion people (Catholic) and over 2.1 billion 'Christians'. Many who would lose that would most likely go 'insane' and do all manner of terrible things.

Like it or not, humans need to believe in some invisible super power in order to behave and survive until they die. It is their faith in some eternal retribution that allows them to believe that the evils - the real evils- of this world 'make sense' for them to pick up the pieces and carry on. Senseless human evil is incomprehensible to most people, they can't deal with it. As long as they believe there is a God with A Plan and that Plan is 'perfect' they can survive.

Faith is expressed in every day to day activity we humans do, it is a comfort for many in a world that is pretty much cold, cruel and heartless. Take that faith away and things would get nasty, fast.

In time the Church will change its stance. No its not your time. But in time it will. The church has changed its stance on so many other issues that it once held near and dear, such as burning witches, such as holding slaves, such as no divorce what-so-ever.

We would be no better than them if we seek to destroy the organization. We need to use gentle pressures and whispered reasoning in order to guide the church into this millennium and beyond.

This would be true if the church were making people behave, perhaps; and I don't even buy that. Lot's of people loose their faith to become better persons. The church empowers homophobes and sows destruction wherever it goes. It is pure evil, in my humble opinion and needs to be stamped out.

[East]

I think people who dismiss all of religion because "the fan club" has run amok are sorely missing out on a very rich experience. And I'm not accusing you, East, of throwing the baby out with the bath water, but let's be honest, it's the same as hating all Americans just because George Bush manipulated his office and other branches of the government for his own selfish gratification. Does that make the Constitution and Bill of Rights a big sham?

Religions that practice kindness and love and do not use fear and shame to control people are fine with me. Individual Churches (such as Glide in SF) who practice love and kindness are also fine with me.

My personal relationship with God is rewarding and brings me comfort already...I do not wish to hear anyone quote the Bible. I do not like that book at all so the rewards would be lost on me. I reject the Bible as a bunch of crap written by men with egos...I have read it so I know what I am rejecting. Having someone try to "explain" the truth to me is pure insanity because even as strong as my own belief is I still know it is MY truth..not THE truth.

In my mind...the baby is the church...the bathwater are the followers...they are individuals and deserve to be treated a such...so I do not throw out the bathwater...I throw out the babymile: On you other analogy...I personally apologized to the world for GFW Bush (ever seen the Im Sorry website?). I am an American and I am paritally responsible for the actions of our government as I am a citizen of this country. If more people understood they are personally repsonsible for the government they elect we might have a better one...just sayin'

[Thibideau]

I was born Catholic. I live in a small community with about 20 different churches covering all forms of christianity. I'm no longer catholic, I believe what I believe and that's good enough. The "Church" are my neighbours, family members, friends, and co-workers.

I don't see the Church as an "Enemy". The same thing that gives me the right to say that I'm no longer catholic is the same thing that gives them the right to say they are. What does attacking them earn anyone? Why can't we promote LGBT rights without going to war with the "church". I know it seems cliche but why not rise above it? Prove we're not what they think we are, and prove we aren't going away no matter how many stones they throw.

Look it's easy to say x=right y=wrong, but you're falling into the same behaviour that Christianity is in. The bible says everything is black and white, right and wrong, and our existence, our lifestyle says that life's just one big shade of gray. So by fighting them on it we prove them correct. Everything is black and white. Standing inspite of them, not losing resolve or spirit proves otherwise. We as a community need to understand we have nothing to prove to them or anyone, even ourselves. It'll proves we're past right and wrong good and evil and just are. Not even god him/herself can stand in the way of that.

[LateBloomer]

I think people who dismiss all of religion because "the fan club" has run amok are sorely missing out on a very rich experience. And I'm not accusing you, East, of throwing the baby out with the bath water, but let's be honest, it's the same as hating all Americans just because George Bush manipulated his office and other branches of the government for his own selfish gratification. Does that make the Constitution and Bill of Rights a big sham?

Religions that practice kindness and love and do not use fear and shame to control people are fine with me. Individual Churches (such as Glide in SF) who practice love and kindness are also fine with me.

My personal relationship with God is rewarding and brings me comfort already...I do not wish to hear anyone quote the Bible. I do not like that book at all so the rewards would be lost on me. I reject the Bible as a bunch of crap written by men with egos...I have read it so I know what I am rejecting. Having someone try to "explain" the truth to me is pure insanity because even as strong as my own belief is I still know it is MY truth..not THE truth.

Ok, OK!

Shit.

I think I've been DECIDEDLY NON PREACHY!



Just trying to share my experience as a gay (or whatever) Catholic. There is room enough in my world.

Dinnertime, CIAO!

[WesHollywood]

He is leading The Church.

The doctrine, the interpretation, the centuries of tradition....

This is what this Pope was hired to do... This is why an old, conservative pope was elected - to give the Church time to adapt to the previous changes and wait to see what its parishioners want and need........
l.

I do not know, but would like to know if this story about Benny 16 is true or not. I picked it up in conversation without verification.

Apparently, when they were voting to see who would replace Pope John Paul, Benny 16 held the gavel. He nominated himself because he believed he could do the job best. This from a Pope who was in the Hitler youth?

I think it is a safe bet that Benny 16's involvement with Hitler youth does not affect his decision making today, huh?

Does anyone know if this is true. I have no idea.

If you are GLBT or GLBT friendly, there is no choice here.



If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

[Rainbowmum]

This one really made me think, and for that I thank you Wes.
Since resigning from modern Christendom and embracing my Pagan heritage, I have tried to follow the Rede.

"Harm ye none do as ye will ."

To me, taking away someone faith is a pretty big deal, there are so many people out there who have nothing left but their faith.

Although I have questioned the leaders of the RCC .

Who gave them the right to choose who receives Gods blessings and who does not; who gave them the right to take away free will a gift that was given to mankind?

I must also question my self.

Who am I to condemn the hope of many? (warts and all)

There are so many good people in RCC , that have been brain washed in believing mans word over Gods word.
I believe these people will be forgiven , and will eventually wake up to the hypocrisies of the church.

Yes there are pedophiles in the church , yes the church has too many flaws to mention.

But if we Demonize it ; are we not doing the same to them as they have done to us?

As a Pagan I know only too well , how it feels when people get confused and call us Satanists (thanks to Hollywood tarnishing the image of the pentagram)

On personal level I will not sink to their level of debauchery and judgement.

That's my two cents.

[East]

Ok, OK!

Shit.

I think I've been DECIDEDLY NON PREACHY!



Just trying to share my experience as a gay (or whatever) Catholic. There is room enough in my world.

Dinnertime, CIAO!

Oh...My apologies...I don't think you as an individual have been preachy at all. I am referring to the nature of religion...the followers who feel it is their personal responsibility to tell other people "the truth" and do not acknowledge they are "beliefs".

[nullnaught]

This one really made me think, and for that I thank you Wes.
Since resigning from modern Christendom and embracing my Pagan heritage, I have tried to follow the Rede.

"Harm ye none do as ye will ."

To me, taking away someone faith is a pretty big deal, there are so many people out there who have nothing left but their faith.

Although I have questioned the leaders of the RCC .

Who gave them the right to choose who receives Gods blessings and who does not; who gave them the right to take away free will a gift that was given to mankind?

I must also question my self.

Who am I to condemn the hope of many? (warts and all)

There are so many good people in RCC , that have been brain washed in believing mans word over Gods word.
I believe these people will be forgiven , and will eventually wake up to the hypocrisies of the church.

Yes there are pedophiles in the church , yes the church has too many flaws to mention.

But if we Demonize it ; are we not doing the same to them as they have done to us?

As a Pagan I know only too well , how it feels when people get confused and call us Satanists (thanks to Hollywood tarnishing the image of the pentagram)

On personal level I will not sink to their level of debauchery and judgement.

That's my two cents.

This is a great point, but I think that we can't lose sight of the political aspect. The church involves itself politically, not just in word. Demonization is part of political destruction and I think we can't sit back and do nothing in response to a political enemy such as the rcc has made istself. If the church were content to bad talk us I would hate them but I wouldn't feel the urge to destroy them politically along with the LDS. They are the ones who began a political war by getting political with our rights. We should end it.:mad:

[WesHollywood]

It is how the Church adapts and changes. Sudden changes are a big no-no, sudden change is irreversible, if the church guesses wrong it threatens the very fabric of the church. Little steps have to be taken, we walk a yard or so, stop, take a deep breath, wait and see what happens for a decade, take a few more baby steps.

Large sweeping changes have lead to some terrible things for the Church, you know things like the Inquisition..... Minor changes, minor reinterpretation works best for the organization.

VatIII most likely will address the Gay Issue, and these other issues and may have surprising answers. But like Vatican II, it runs a huge risk of losing many of its members.

41/49% is a huge number - we are talking hundreds of millions.

Come on Bowyn you are studied on religious issues. Gay marriage is a political question, and we have allowed the Roman Catholic Church to jump into politics. We need to treat them as lobbyists, and jerk their non-tax status. We have allowed a Vatican tail to wag the American dog. Enough is enough.

If you are GLBT or GLBT friendly, there is no choice here.



If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.