Is it wrong to demonize "Rosary Rattlers" as they are sworn enemies of GLBT?

[East]

If we do not watch our Government closely at every step, we will lose it. And, things are not looking real healthy for America these days. I would like to know how many letters the members of this web site have sent to their elected officials in the last year. I wrote three in the last month. My Senator, Congressman, and the CEO of HBO about an anti-GLBT message in a documentary they aired. This is every citizens responsibility. Not enough of us take it seriously.

We are a violent people. We need to stop
'glossing it over' and learn how to manage it.
Let's cut the bull shit.

Hear Hear! I have been very active politically my whole life and I write regularly. I also check out every candidate and look at their congressional votes and I follow their money trail. We get the government we ask for. I do not patronize establishments that give money to anti GLBT causes and I am aware of who they are.

I started bartending in gay nightclubs when I was 21 and I stopped when I was 40....worked 20 years as a bartender...and when election day came I bought anyone who brought me a voting stub a drink. I thanked them for not participating in what will kill all of us one day...APATHY. For the people who did not vote (MOST OF THEM) after Satan...I mean Reagan..was voted in I told them to never bitch about anything for the next four years that because they did not use their voice when it mattered.

[WesHollywood]

Hear Hear! I have been very active politically my whole life and I write regularly. I also check out every candidate and look at their congressional votes and I follow their money trail. We get the government we ask for. I do not patronize establishments that give money to anti GLBT causes and I am aware of who they are.

I started bartending in gay nightclubs when I was 21 and I stopped when I was 40....worked 20 years as a bartender...and when election day came I bought anyone who brought me a voting stub a drink. I thanked them for not participating in what will kill all of us one day...APATHY. For the people who did not vote (MOST OF THEM) after Satan...I mean Reagan..was voted in I told them to never bitch about anything for the next four years that because they did not use their voice when it mattered.

Bingo my friend Bingo! You hit the nail on the head. And I will tell you five minutes after most people see your word "apathy" they forget it and move on.

The question every politician or GLBT politico asks when someone goes in looking for a favor is "What have you done for me today?" Now we all know that politicians are supposed to serve all constituents, however........

When I call my Congressman, Henry Waxman, I get a call back the same day. Once from him about a rally, but usually from staff. I campaigned damn hard for Waxman and he knows it. In addition my employer bills for our Waxman time, but I work for Waxman for free because he is my representative in Congress.

Waxman is a way bigger Dem prick than I am.

I have been posting about my 28 year old buddy who woke up with pain in his shoulder that turned into surgery, and now his employer is considering firing him to hire someone new. An employer can do this. I called out to Waxman's staff to recommend an employment attorney to advise my friend, and today was the day I drove him, and we went in. Now, I had been told there would be a $100 consultation fee, and really thought nothing more of it. When we learned the address was a luxury office building in Century City, we were somewhat surprised. Let's say the law firm name was Penninger and Gilpen.

We went up the elevator to these super luxury offices with three floors and many attorneys. We checked in with reception, and she responded, "Yes, Mr. Penninger is expecting you!" A named fucking partner in one of the cities largest employment law firms! Shit, with California's liberal employment laws my friend is going to secure his job, (which is the goal), or he will be wealthy enough to stop working for a couple years.

Soooooooooooo, my GLBT friends, how active are you politics? That's up to you. But, as a fellow I know over at, the now bankrupt American Airlines, says, "There are only so many seats in first class, and there are not enough seats available for everyone in coach." You knew this was coming. Don't miss this next :30

[Bowyn Aerrow]

If we could make them feel as if we were close to striping them of their tax exempt status, then I think they would change a lot faster.

Stripping the church of its tax exempt status will mean that it will not be able to perform the many charities it does. It means that We the People will see new taxes levees against us to pay for welfare, food stamps and other various programs. It will not hurt the church, it may actually help the Churches' cause winning support for its side of the issues.

The churches ARE changing - albeit slowly. Name one church today that denies interracial marriage rites to be performed in its holy sanctums. Now go back 100 years and list them... it would most likely be easier to list the ones that did allow it 100 years ago.

Name one church in the USA that supports slavery. 150+ years ago many of them would pull out scripture to support the secular laws on the keeping of slaves.

Times change, the church changes too - slowly. And mostly from people on the inside, not from people on the outside demanding change of the church.

[WesHollywood]

Stripping the church of its tax exempt status will mean that it will not be able to perform the many charities it does. It means that We the People will see new taxes levees against us to pay for welfare, food stamps and other various programs. It will not hurt the church, it may actually help the Churches' cause winning support for its side of the issues.

The churches ARE changing - albeit slowly. Name one church today that denies interracial marriage rites to be performed in its holy sanctums. Now go back 100 years and list them... it would most likely be easier to list the ones that did allow it 100 years ago.

Name one church in the USA that supports slavery. 150+ years ago many of them would pull out scripture to support the secular laws on the keeping of slaves.

Times change, the church changes too - slowly. And mostly from people on the inside, not from people on the outside demanding change of the church.

Come on Bowyn. Until the Roman Catholic Church publishes a financial statement none of us know how much goes for palaces and fancy smocks. Then to get the "so called help" you have to go through some kind of "Jesus Fest." These guys are SELLING to fill the collection plate. If they were really sincere they would be taking their money to non-profit groups like Feeding America where the work is done by volunteers who donate their time.

[Bowyn Aerrow]

The question is inconsistent. Revenge is not a logical thing, so how can you ask if it is logical? You bar emotional (moral) comments, but then try to justify an animal (emotional) instinct reaction to pay back.

Revenge is a moral issue, inspired by emotion. It's impact is moral in nature, with consequences both to the doer and the victim.

In order to understand this, give me a logical reason to 'pay back' one based without emotion. You can't. Logic dictates that an emotional response will trigger an emotional response in return.

Logically, humans act and react more than they think and reason. If I slap you, you will punch me, that would lead to me beating you with my cane, which leads to you grabbing a knife or a gun....

Logically the outcome you desire would be one that favors your position, thus not feeding that emotional tit for tat response ultimately defuses the situation. It is difficult for two people to have a fight if one refuses to fight.

I hear this sort of sentiment. I don't understand it in terms of game theory. I think to make this sort of thinking make sense, you have to assume right and wrong exist. As a matter of game theory, I think it is a good strategy to treat others as they have demonstrated they will treat you. Take the morals out and try answering this again. I am not a turn the other cheek type of fellow. Show me a logical reason not to treat them as badly as they have treated us.

[WesHollywood]

Stripping the church of its tax exempt status will mean that it will not be able to perform the many charities it does. It means that We the People will see new taxes levees against us to pay for welfare, food stamps and other various programs. It will not hurt the church, it may actually help the Churches' cause winning support for its side of the issues.

The churches ARE changing - albeit slowly. Name one church today that denies interracial marriage rites to be performed in its holy sanctums. Now go back 100 years and list them... it would most likely be easier to list the ones that did allow it 100 years ago.

Name one church in the USA that supports slavery. 150+ years ago many of them would pull out scripture to support the secular laws on the keeping of slaves.

Times change, the church changes too - slowly. And mostly from people on the inside, not from people on the outside demanding change of the church.

Come on Bowyn. Until the Roman Catholic Church publishes a financial statement none of us know how much goes for palaces and fancy smocks. Then to get the "so called help" you have to go through some kind of "Jesus Fest." These guys are SELLING to fill the collection plate.

If they were really sincere they would be taking their money to non-profit groups like Feeding America where the work is done by volunteers who donate their time. http://feedingamerica.org/

The Catholic Church is out to gather wealth and power. Issues are not important as long as the Bishops and Cardinals get their piece of the comfort action. Like any corporation, the money moves from the branches to the headquarters.

Don't get me wrong there are truly dedicated priests. But, the water into wine crap should have been the first hint for them to realize that the Roman Catholic Church is a con job, and a very effective one by the way. 1.2 BILLION suckers. I know my employer has never brought that many people to a client, but we are not as good of liars as religion are we? We might sell you product you don't like, but we don't pump your soul full of bull shit to make a buck.

The question of this thread remains;

Is it wrong to demonize "Rosary Rattlers" as they are sworn enemies of GLBT?

[Bowyn Aerrow]

I would be willing to dig into this for you, and I will prevail. The right to marriage is Constitutional. GLBT believe our right to marriage is implied, and we seek clarification. I believe this is why the SCOTUS keeps pushing the issue back to the States as a delaying tactic so they do not have to hear the case. Case goes to SCOTUS, we win almost immediately. At least that is what my sources tell me.

My friend, the right to gay marriage does exist. You are in a sense married yourself. Surely you know this or are you once again lightening the mood with your sense of humor?

The Constitution - its just a goddamned piece of paper.......:o

The 'marriage' right is 'inferred' there is no Amendment that guarantee's marriage.
National Center for Constitutional Studies
http://www.nccs.net/newsletter/apr04nl.html

I am not married in any sense of the word of 'marriage'. I do have a legal contract (applicable in only California, not on the federal level) that makes me a legal domestic partner which gives me such rights as to visit him in hospital or pull the plug choice for him. We do not have co-filed taxes, nor tax breaks for being in a DP.

We also have other lawyer drawn up papers that will make certain my mother gets only $100.00 from my estate and the rest goes to my partner with her not readily being able to contest my will.

This is not really marriage.

[WesHollywood]

The question is inconsistent. Revenge is not a logical thing, so how can you ask if it is logical? You bar emotional (moral) comments, but then try to justify an animal (emotional) instinct reaction to pay back.

Revenge is a moral issue, inspired by emotion. It's impact is moral in nature, with consequences both to the doer and the victim.

In order to understand this, give me a logical reason to 'pay back' one based without emotion. You can't. Logic dictates that an emotional response will trigger an emotional response in return.

Logically, humans act and react more than they think and reason. If I slap you, you will punch me, that would lead to me beating you with my cane, which leads to you grabbing a knife or a gun....

Logically the outcome you desire would be one that favors your position, thus not feeding that emotional tit for tat response ultimately defuses the situation. It is difficult for two people to have a fight if one refuses to fight.

Come on Bowyn, you know the game of politics better than that. We have dealt with a lot of facts in this thread, and clearly the GLBT in favor of GLBT marriage have won the day. Now the question is politics. The Roman Catholic Church continues to beat us in the politics of "perception." The Catholic Church demonizes GLBT, so we do not get our rights of marriage.

All we are going to do is play their game better than they do. There is no debate, we GLBT, along with MANY other groups would love to dismantle the Rosary Rattlers. If we have to destroy a pro-Catholic Congresswoman, or deport Mexican Catholics to do it, sign me up.

Question is what is so damn important that you are doing that you are not our here helping us? To get your attention do we have to put your picture up in GLBT bars and businesses with a sign that says "Don't serve this person." We can do it, and we have done it.

We can do it, and we have done it.

This is bare-knuckle politics leave it to GLBT women and men, while you go read your holy book, and pray for Benny.

[Bowyn Aerrow]

Come on Bowyn. Until the Roman Catholic Church publishes a financial statement none of us know how much goes for palaces and fancy smocks. Then to get the "so called help" you have to go through some kind of "Jesus Fest." These guys are SELLING to fill the collection plate. If they were really sincere they would be taking their money to non-profit groups like Feeding America where the work is done by volunteers who donate their time.

This is not the same thing as a TV Evangelist who will target Granny on her pension check telling her her donation buys her a place in the hereafter.

The Church is an international charity, meaning it does work beyond the USA.

The Church is no longer building palaces. Most of the structures were fund raises specifically by the priests of the parish or the bishop beyond the funds gathered to do other things. Cathedrals, Churches, Sanctuaries are built chiefly on the charitable donations of the Rich Catholics who are shamed by priests, nuns, bishops and cardinals to loosen up their purse to 'do something' for the community.

Then there are secondary public events held to raise money for refurbishing and building new structures such as this one: http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index...raise.html

As for the clothing worn, That most likely comes out of the collection plate for the parish. The passing of the plate is used to pay for the structure the congregation meets in, fund drives for charity are done separately, until that particular congregation tithes nicely to the church, then some of those 'excess' funds are sent to parishes in trouble and to charities.

A priest will target the more wealthy members of his congregation in private before standing at the pulpit to raise money.

Many of the clergy, especially monks and nuns, will earn a profit. A lot of places used to run vineyards and make wine, keeping some for sacrament while selling some for a tiny profit to pay for the nunnery/monastery and to pay into charitable works with a minor 'Vatican tax' that is used to pay for other things up and down the hierarchy.

Other incomes are derived from public tourism where a minor ticket is sold that goes to the upkeep of the cathedral that is being toured. MOST of the Vatican's money comes from the Peter Pence, the Vatican Bank and the admission paid to its various museums. Still the Vatican often times runs on a deficit of around 10-30 million a year.

BTW the Church is suffering and struggling financially:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/hom...52311.html

The church has been consolidating and selling its 'assets', its properties and its churches to pay for expenses.

Most of those articles of clothing you see in public situations are old, with many of them sewn together by nuns and priests who do the sewing themselves with material and fabric donated by generous textile companies. They do hire some non-cleric types to do sewing.

As for financial statements, this is a global organization, with thousands of parishes each keeping track of its own financial records. It is difficult for the church to covert all of that into one financial statement. You can, however, track many dioceses, a good search will reveal that readily enough.

[Bowyn Aerrow]

In another thread I pointed out that there are the raging screamers, shaking their scantily clad booties on top of parade floats, then there is larger, unseen, unmentioned whisperers.

In my day to day life I spread the 'Good Gay News' to all the people I meet. I whisper to them, consult with them, drop a word of wit (plant a seed).

It took me a decade, but I have convinced my neighbors that gay people are not two headed monsters seeking to devour their children. The next time the Gay Marriage Vote comes up they will be less likely to throw out the NO TO GAY MARRIAGE sign on their front lawn, cover their cars in anti-gay stickers and actually seriously think about the quiet gay couple who have demonstrated though over a decade of living and being part of the community that its really ok to be gay.

They might vote no next time, but not without a twinge of guilt. If I am patient and wear away at their resolve long enough the day will come when they will go in and vote yes for gay marriage.

The Local Baptist Church that is one of my clients used to preach long and loud against 'homosexuals'. However its now difficult for that pastor to stand in his pulpit and preach anti-gay hate-speech after 8 years of me fixing the church toilets, donating my time and half the materials to put a new roof on the church when they needed it most and didn't have the funds and of course the many hours he and I have spent 'talking shop' - you know religious stuff.

His congregation has noticed his new found 'silence' on the issue.

No its not a spectacular effect, no I will not single-handedly change enough opinions on the matter to win the next Gay Marriage Vote, but I know I made it real easy for the Johnson's girl to come out to her family, and that the Smith's son will be less likely to run off to the big city and get ran down by that place since he will be just a wee bit more comfortable to be gay out here where 10 years ago the people were dead set against 'The gay'. Now they are not so dead set, they are just a little more tolerance, a little less prone to screaming words of hate, a little less given to stern reproach in their eyes.

I protest silently, with gentle acts and kind smiles and forgiveness. I don't have to wave a flag, or dance on my front lawn or even put up the only YES on Prop 22 sign to get their attention. I lead by example, I show that being gay is normal, that being part of a gay partnership doesn't mean my house will be flaming pink and there will be all night raves and near naked boys marching down the street.

I show them that gay is normal, gay will have a lawn and have pretty much the same concerns that the rest of them do, concern when the street floods, concern about the new crime wave, concern over the abandoned lot turning into a dumping spot....

In my 20's I was much more politically active. Part of protests and rallies, part of the papering campaigns. I even danced shirtless on more than one float - no less and even in a kilt Worn the correctly.... :tongue:

I actually do write and stay in touch with several members of the Clergy in both Episcopalian and Catholic Churches. Been doing that for decades, slowly introducing new ideas and slowly 'arguing' the case for positive change. I have whispered in the ear of more than one bishop in my life.

I'm not hiding in some city in the Gay Community, I'm out here on the front line, standing alone or just with my partner - a wide open target. I'm not flag waving and drawing attention to the work I do in service of the LGBT community (or any of the other things I do).

Each time we shop together, more of the conservative types see that we argue over healthy diet over junk food just like a long married straight couple do. They see the sameness, not the difference, and are less likely to buy into the stereotypes.

They see a man, who works with tools and talks like a man, limps like a man, who doesn't lisp, make 'gay phrases' my catch phrases, who doesn't know teal from china, and who doesn't bother with fashion, hairdressing, and the like.

I'm busy out here breaking the stereotypes, slowly changing the perceptions of what they think gay means, wining one vote at a time with great patience and gentle words and acts of kindness.

Come on Bowyn, you know the game of politics better than that. We have dealt with a lot of facts in this thread, and clearly the GLBT in favor of GLBT marriage have won the day. Now the question is politics. The Roman Catholic Church continues to beat us in the politics of "perception." The Catholic Church demonizes GLBT, so we do not get our rights of marriage.

All we are going to do is play their game better than they do. There is no debate, we GLBT, along with MANY other groups would love to dismantle the Rosary Rattlers. If we have to destroy a pro-Catholic Congresswoman, or deport Mexican Catholics to do it, sign me up.

Question is what is so damn important that you are doing that you are not our here helping us? To get your attention do we have to put your picture up in GLBT bars and businesses with a sign that says "Don't serve this person." We can do it, and we have done it.

We can do it, and we have done it.

This is bare-knuckle politics leave it to GLBT women and men, while you go read your holy book, and pray for Benny.