Dichotimization of Males(Sorry gals :[ )

[Sylph]

Soooooooooooo , I've been thinking, and believe me, that not a good thing .

I've been thinking about the seemingly simplistic Dichotimization of us Males that's been occuring for millions of years (females too, but I want to focus on the male side of things). It's intriguing to me that, although we've come this far and have achieved so much,we seem to be still stuck back in the stone ages when everything was black and white?

Let me explain .

Okay, so we all know about males and females right? All the parts, hormones, differences, similarities and everything in between correct? Well, I want to discuss this odd phenomenon of effemiphobia and hyper masculinity/ "straight-acting" in today's society, especially the gay one(s).

From what I can gather, Men are supposed to be men and have ; Bulging muscles, six packs, beards/moustaches, deep gruff voices and basically no feminine qualities, am I right? Well, I was hoping that I was wrong, but it seems that's how people, men in particular, feel men should be and basically would accept no less. I mean, from an individualistic stand point, I'd say go for it and be who you are, but why shut down some one else's individualism/persona, because it doesn't fit with the status quo?

To clearify, the meaning of Dichotomy(Dichotimization) is to start at point A and then have two(or more) branches divided from A, while retaining their own specific qualities/attributes, as well as that of A.

So to say for instance, A is the big muscly dude with no femininity, and then as time goes on, A then becomes A, B-The man with feminine traits and C-The bisexual or "hybrid" of sorts.

Does this not mean that, from A (the all around "male") comes forth B, It's total opposite in all things "male"? Many people would say that, being gay (especially feminine) is a freak accident in the division of A, but wouldn't that mean that A actually originally held the qualities that B and C got, as it was the original? B and C are bi-products of the division of A, so the traits would have to come from their root, A.

This basically means that, why call a feminine man a woman, when in reality, that very same man shares the same qualities as you(if you identify with A), as we all came from the same "point A".

"Men looking for Men" or "Straight acting looking for the same" is basically saying, no feminine guys, but what's really being said is, "A looking for another A", which is actually not true, because technically we all share the same traits, straight,gay,bisexual or otherwise.

This isn't the case for the entire world, and most people don't think like this, but it is an issue and it's definetly tangeable.

I've read online and heard in real life, men (both straight and gay) say that they would never date a man who is feminine, because it's practically the same as being with a woman. Now personally, I am feminine, but it stops at wearing make-up/wearing dresses and what not, but when someone says something like that, it's offensive, because we are also men. It's like calling a "straight acting/masculine man" gorillas or apes, because that's how the "stereotypical male" is portrayed (hairy, big muscles, very gruff).

When the masculine gay men claim to be "real men" , isn't that a blow to every man who doesn't meet the same standards? It's really anti-progressive when you think about it, and if you think on it even more, wasn't it the "femmes" who were the liberators?

Those "flaming" ones were the ones to stand up for gay rights and take most of the backlash (not to say non-feminine men didn't, but they could slip under the radar) and still do today. Personally, I think that "femmes" or the "B's" of the world are much stronger than the so called "real men" , not even including myself, because I do not go through what some feminine guys go through on a regular.

I think that, although we are so far ahead in the advancement of civilization sense, we are still behind in the way that we view each other, and how narrow the colour spectrum is when it comes to individualism.

I won't touch such things as Androgens and chemicals that influence us in utero, but I would consider looking that up, as it is very informitave and could help explain a few things.
~
What do you guys think? It was kind of a rant, but I tried to make sense of it (my brain works so weird ).

I do not mean to insult anyone, but I tried to get my point across as best as I could . So please don't get riled up, pure academic interest on my part :biggrin: .

(P.s I identify with being feminine, but realistically I prefer to just be me, as a human with a profound sense of individualism [I love that word :tongue:] )

[pellaz]

Please before a response think of how we all learn from each other. Its a hard world we all have been through that makes us jaded and hateful of every, maybe even our selves.

[Sylph]

Please before a response think of how we all learn from each other. Its a hard world we all have been through that makes us jaded and hateful of every, maybe even our selves.

Believe me, I realize that, even at 18. But saying that doesn't solve the issue, it just covers it up like aspirin. The world could be better, but people don't seem to want it too, not without giving up on their opinions and views of the world and how it should be. I love or try to love all people, but when the vast majority doesn't reciprocate it to one another, it makes me wonder why. And that's why I did a bit of "light" reading and want to discuss it with you guys. mile:

[Bowyn Aerrow]

Male Femininity throughout history has changed in its role and its 'meaning'.

Around the time of Jesus a man being 'womanly' - effeminate had nothing to do with sexuality, it had more to do with being rich. The richer a man was, the less physical work he did. As a sign of his class and stature he had soft hands, soft body. They wore makeup - a real sign of being free to do what ever you wanted.

Soft hands, rounded body, rich silks and fabrics all pointed at a man of leisure, he had slaves to do all of that physical labor. Thus a big burly muscular guy with calloused hands was seen as 'poor'. Exception being gladiators and 'military' men. They held a special place in Roman culture because Rome was all about expansion and dominating the world.

Middle Ages/Dark Ages when kings were kings, there was a minor push toward femininity once again as wealth was demonstrated by the lack of hardness that hard work bestows upon men.

The majority of straight boys your age are actually far more girly than in my generation, they are weaker, slimmer, even 'pretty' to a point - again this shows signs of coming from a family of means. They did not need to work on the farm, or in the field - they are not doing hard labor. Instead they are technocrats, manipulating electronics and having a 'soft' life with little to no physical demands.

The idealized brute male, is once again being seen as a product of lower class, a product of hard labor and is 'less than'. Since the 1970's there has been a huge push away from the 1950's typical idea of 'masculinity' - Suddenly real men do cry, Usher in the age of Metro-sexuality were more and more men are doing 'girly things' to take care of themselves.

We are in a period where the lines of what being a 'real man' is blurring again. And it is the older generation who is screaming 'Its because they are gay'. The younger generation is seeing it as just who they are.

Axe for men and all of these other body and hair care products are a sign of the popularity of males 'taking care' of themselves. Slender, swimmers build is seen as the 'new healthy'. The body building rage of the 80's and 90's was an outgrown of the fear of HIV/AIDS but as that fear is diminished, we once again move back to slender, defined body image.

Body hair is seen less 'manly' and more 'brute', follow the stud of the day thread, the majority of the males there have swimmer's bodies and are bodily clean shaven.

Femininity in males also conveys the general idea of youth. Being youthful is far more important in our modern society then a man's ability to work hard and labor.

[zeon]

I think the days of being a macho macho man are long gone to be honest... I think a man is a true man if he is not afriad to show emotion... Back in the dark days the average bloke had to do what he had to do because he wasnt able to or permitted to express his views

Kindest regards

zeopn x

[Sylph]

Male Femininity throughout history has changed in its role and its 'meaning'.

Around the time of Jesus a man being 'womanly' - effeminate had nothing to do with sexuality, it had more to do with being rich. The richer a man was, the less physical work he did. As a sign of his class and stature he had soft hands, soft body. They wore makeup - a real sign of being free to do what ever you wanted.

Soft hands, rounded body, rich silks and fabrics all pointed at a man of leisure, he had slaves to do all of that physical labor. Thus a big burly muscular guy with calloused hands was seen as 'poor'. Exception being gladiators and 'military' men. They held a special place in Roman culture because Rome was all about expansion and dominating the world.

Middle Ages/Dark Ages when kings were kings, there was a minor push toward femininity once again as wealth was demonstrated by the lack of hardness that hard work bestows upon men.

The majority of straight boys your age are actually far more girly than in my generation, they are weaker, slimmer, even 'pretty' to a point - again this shows signs of coming from a family of means. They did not need to work on the farm, or in the field - they are not doing hard labor. Instead they are technocrats, manipulating electronics and having a 'soft' life with little to no physical demands.

The idealized brute male, is once again being seen as a product of lower class, a product of hard labor and is 'less than'. Since the 1970's there has been a huge push away from the 1950's typical idea of 'masculinity' - Suddenly real men do cry, Usher in the age of Metro-sexuality were more and more men are doing 'girly things' to take care of themselves.

We are in a period where the lines of what being a 'real man' is blurring again. And it is the older generation who is screaming 'Its because they are gay'. The younger generation is seeing it as just who they are.

Axe for men and all of these other body and hair care products are a sign of the popularity of males 'taking care' of themselves. Slender, swimmers build is seen as the 'new healthy'. The body building rage of the 80's and 90's was an outgrown of the fear of HIV/AIDS but as that fear is diminished, we once again move back to slender, defined body image.

Body hair is seen less 'manly' and more 'brute', follow the stud of the day thread, the majority of the males there have swimmer's bodies and are bodily clean shaven.

Femininity in males also conveys the general idea of youth. Being youthful is far more important in our modern society then a man's ability to work hard and labor.

Interesting BowynAerrow, I can definetly see your point, especially about the youth of my generation. Although, I have to disagree on a minor scale when it comes to where you come from and how that corrolates with femininity, atleast in my generation or my situation. I know for a fact that I do not have it easy, nor do I come from a wealthy family (single mom, bills, etc), but because of what I've been through, I've learned to be my self and be expressive, which some would call feminine. I had to be, otherwise I'd have been trampled all over.

I totally agree with you on everything else, but then why is it that feminine males are so looked down upon? Is it because that they have it easy or because they come from a family thats well off? That can't be true for everyone, because I'm sure there are other boys/men in my situation.

Some men equivocate being feminine to being a woman, in which case the result is all things men used to consider women as; Dainty, weak, can't do things, etc. This seems to be the main argument used by the "manly men".



@Zeon, I agree with you, even though there are still a few who carry on this "machismo" tradition. Thanks for your input .

[ZackT]

Everyone's got their own little ideas of who's more "manly" than the rest. For me, I don't really look at someone who's big and muscular as being necessarily manly. They're in great shape, but to me, the ideology of being a real man or a real woman is more in the personality than in the appearance. Actually, for both of the genders, the criteria is pretty much the same. You're true to yourself, whether that means you're stoic and hard on the outside, or you're expressive and sensitive. I tend to think of the "Real man" or "Real woman" when I feel respect for someone. A lot of times that respect comes from them doing something honorable or being clearly knowledgable but not egotistical...hardworking, or whatever. Basically, they have to have certain traits that I think is good to see in anyone.

Not everyone's gonna see it that way, I think largely due to upbringing and social pressures from their friends. But as time passes, we see more and more tolerance and acceptance for things not so "traditional".

[Sylph]

Everyone's got their own little ideas of who's more "manly" than the rest. For me, I don't really look at someone who's big and muscular as being necessarily manly. They're in great shape, but to me, the ideology of being a real man or a real woman is more in the personality than in the appearance. Actually, for both of the genders, the criteria is pretty much the same. You're true to yourself, whether that means you're stoic and hard on the outside, or you're expressive and sensitive. I tend to think of the "Real man" or "Real woman" when I feel respect for someone. A lot of times that respect comes from them doing something honorable or being clearly knowledgable but not egotistical...hardworking, or whatever. Basically, they have to have certain traits that I think is good to see in anyone.

Not everyone's gonna see it that way, I think largely due to upbringing and social pressures from their friends. But as time passes, we see more and more tolerance and acceptance for things not so "traditional".

I agree. Lets have tea

I hope the generation after my youngest brother (who is 7 now :3 ) will not have to go through all this drama. It's unecessary really :confused: .

[Bowyn Aerrow]

Interesting BowynAerrow, I can definetly see your point, especially about the youth of my generation. Although, I have to disagree on a minor scale when it comes to where you come from and how that corrolates with femininity, atleast in my generation or my situation. I know for a fact that I do not have it easy, nor do I come from a wealthy family (single mom, bills, etc), but because of what I've been through, I've learned to be my self and be expressive, which some would call feminine. I had to be, otherwise I'd have been trampled all over.

I totally agree with you on everything else, but then why is it that feminine males are so looked down upon? Is it because that they have it easy or because they come from a family thats well off? That can't be true for everyone, because I'm sure there are other boys/men in my situation.

Some men equivocate being feminine to being a woman, in which case the result is all things men used to consider women as; Dainty, weak, can't do things, etc. This seems to be the main argument used by the "manly men".



@Zeon, I agree with you, even though there are still a few who carry on this "machismo" tradition. Thanks for your input .

You are from the western world, you are wealthy, beyond the imagination for billions of people 5-6 billion will never live the life you are accustomed to and would see your large fancy apartment, your computer, your whole life as extreme wealth.

[monk]

I always tend to think that "manly men" are the tough ones, until I remember that Quentin Crisp was one of the bravest men who ever lived.