should gays arm them selves (US)

[East]

I would question why you hang around people who would drink and carry a weapon or be so irresponsible as to pull a weapon and wave it around. Firearms and Alcohol don't mix just like drinking and driving.

Blaming those who own responsibly for the misdeeds of those who don't is just like kindergarten where you punish the entire class because billy broke the potted plant.

I was a bartender and who said anything about waving it around? (though that did happen on a few occasions). Reminding people you have a gun when things dont' go your way and you are drunk is common and I had to deal with them................and it was WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYY more than one person:mad:

[Beaux]

Well, I'm from Louisiana originally and we are practically borne packing. I got my first shotgun for Christmas when I was 6. Starting at age 12, I got a pistol for my birthday every year. I don't generally keep a gun on my person, though I do have a concealed weapons permit. The only time I carry is when i make long trips alone, and not always then. I do keep a pistol attached to the back panel of my night stand.

[Blue]

First of all, EVERY establishment that serves alcohol that I have EVER been in is posted- no weapons so, IF some jerk had a gun in there, he has it illegally - I would call the police and stay away from the gun carrying drunk until they arrived.

Second, the few that have gotten guns legally and later gone ballistic with them are few and, even those were not concealed carry permit holders who, fyi, must demonstrate to law enforcement officers that they are capable of using their sidearms accurately, safely and quickly in high stress situation while aiming and, firing at man size and shaped targets. We are asked for head shot's, vitals zone shots and disabling, non lethal shot to show we know the difference and can repeatedly make the shot the situation may require. We also pas both state and federal background checks, and in most states the city police chief and.or county sheriff must sign a document stating that he approves of us obtaining the permit, we have demonstrated knowledge of a competency with our guns and, we are not a risk to the general public while armed.

We have to know the laws as well as the wishes of business owners anywhere we carry, and we have to abide by those laws an wishes. I could be fined, arrested and/or do jail time if my shirt simply slipped up when I bent over to get a can of vegetables off the bottom shelf in the grocery store and someone saw my sidearm and called the police. Yes the store allows concealed carry, but if I reveal my sidearm in a non defense situation EVER, ANYWHERE, or even tell someone I have it and, they call in, I am the one that is going to be arrested, fined and possibly jailed for it and, my sidearm will definitely be confiscated and, I will loose my right concealed carry.

Someone that is likely to go postal is not going to go through what it takes to earn the privilege of concealed carry. Pleas don't lump me and other responsible concealed carriers with those that use rifles in post offices, where by the way I am NOT allowed to carry my sidearm.

No gun in bars, taverns. pubs, liquor stores, banks, courthouses, the county jail, churches, schools, or most major chain restaurants. And where have most of those mass shootings happened? In places it's illegal to carry a gun in the first place.

So since the gun got in there, two thing happened. 1- the armed person was not obeying the law. 2 - Those responsible for keeping guns out of that place failed to keep that gun out. Had the person with the gun been a responsible, law abiding gun owner, the gun would never have gone there. Had the security measure in place not failed at some point, the gun would have been safely removed from the individual before it was fired.

My point is, for things like Columbine to happen it takes more than one thing going wrong and, none of those have been perpetrated with a sidearm that could have been used for concealed carry, or even a gun logical to use for self defense.

[Buffylo]

I am going to come right out and say it.

I am disturbed by the general aceptance of guns in society and the complete blindness to tha fact that this acceptance and willingness to have guns legally or illegally in our society is part of the problem.

I am reading posts and I am absoluetly stunned at the way some people are 'glorifying' fire arms.

These 2 facts together scare the crap out of me. Am I going to get some guys who is apparently sane with a gun licence snap and go all postal on me at work or sitting in a cinema watching a movie like, lets just say for kicks, Batman?

I mean seriously it is flawed logic to say legally obtained firearms by licenced holders isn't a problem when quiet evidently it is.

I'm sorry to say this but in my mind those that believe it is a given right to walk around the streets with a gun are not far removed from those that have just climbed out of the trees.

http://www.ehow.com/list_6630714_colorad...rearm.html

No licenses required in CO.

And here is the thing. There is a difference between buying guns and using them legally, and buying them and using them illegally. If you buy a gun legally then turn around to kill someone with it, you're just as bad as the guy who buys a hammer and bludgeons a guy to death with it. People demonize guns because governments want them demonized. that's just how it is.

You have to understand dfiant, you live in a different culture than the citizens of the United States do. You are surrounded by water and share no land borders with any other nation. We live in a country so spread out and separated by water and other nations that we are still, essentially, a frontier country. We are only 50 miles away from one of our biggest adversaries, Russia (formerly the USSR, and that distance only includes land connected to the mainland. Russian and Alaskan Territory is as close as 2 miles apart). We share a border with Mexico, which is essentially a third world country. Not to mention has a major impact on our economy due to illegal immigration. Interesting facts about the US-Mexico border:

The border's total length is 3,169 km (1,969 mi), according to figures given by the International Boundary and Water Commission.[1] It is the most frequently crossed international border in the world,[2][3][4] with approximately three hundred fifty million (350,000,000) crossings per year.[5][3]

Hawaii is a very vulnerable state to attack by Asian-pacific countries (WWII again...)

Our Southern border NOT shared with Mexico is a prime target by the Unitary Republic of Cuba (cute way of saying communist).

We are not similar to Australia. What may work there, will not work here. We would make ourselves targets of all sorts of people looking to exploit the innocent.

This is why I point to the Swiss model. They are a country that sat DIRECTLY IN THE MIDDLE of two world wars and never had to raise a gun in violence. Armed neutrality FTW.

Cultural differences.

[East]

First of all, EVERY establishment that serves alcohol that I have EVER been in is posted- no weapons so, IF some jerk had a gun in there, he has it illegally - I would call the police and stay away from the gun carrying drunk until they arrived.

Second, the few that have gotten guns legally and later gone ballistic with them are few and, even those were not concealed carry permit holders who, fyi, must demonstrate to law enforcement officers that they are capable of using their sidearms accurately, safely and quickly in high stress situation while aiming and, firing at man size and shaped targets. We are asked for head shot's, vitals zone shots and disabling, non lethal shot to show we know the difference and can repeatedly make the shot the situation may require. We also pas both state and federal background checks, and in most states the city police chief and.or county sheriff must sign a document stating that he approves of us obtaining the permit, we have demonstrated knowledge of a competency with our guns and, we are not a risk to the general public while armed.

We have to know the laws as well as the wishes of business owners anywhere we carry, and we have to abide by those laws an wishes. I could be fined, arrested and/or do jail time if my shirt simply slipped up when I bent over to get a can of vegetables off the bottom shelf in the grocery store and someone saw my sidearm and called the police. Yes the store allows concealed carry, but if I reveal my sidearm in a non defense situation EVER, ANYWHERE, or even tell someone I have it and, they call in, I am the one that is going to be arrested, fined and possibly jailed for it and, my sidearm will definitely be confiscated and, I will loose my right concealed carry.

Someone that is likely to go postal is not going to go through what it takes to earn the privilege of concealed carry. Pleas don't lump me and other responsible concealed carriers with those that use rifles in post offices, where by the way I am NOT allowed to carry my sidearm.

No gun in bars, taverns. pubs, liquor stores, banks, courthouses, the county jail, churches, schools, or most major chain restaurants. And where have most of those mass shootings happened? In places it's illegal to carry a gun in the first place.

So since the gun got in there, two thing happened. 1- the armed person was not obeying the law. 2 - Those responsible for keeping guns out of that place failed to keep that gun out. Had the person with the gun been a responsible, law abiding gun owner, the gun would never have gone there. Had the security measure in place not failed at some point, the gun would have been safely removed from the individual before it was fired.

My point is, for things like Columbine to happen it takes more than one thing going wrong and, none of those have been perpetrated with a sidearm that could have been used for concealed carry, or even a gun logical to use for self defense.

It is not legal to carry in California as far as I am aware and my point is really simple. You can argue all the other points but please dont' pretend you have the definitive answer and know exactly what all gun owners will or won't do...you don't. I never said ALL gun owners behave this way because it would be just as ridiculous as claiming none of them do. You only know what you will or won't do. Plenty of gun owners are assholes and behave as such...I am talking garden variety asshole...not Columbine sensational variety asshole...just like the rest of the population.

[Genersis]

Access and common ownership of guns reducing gun crime, and crime rates in general is a claim that is completely unsubstantiated.
It seems to make little difference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_crime

As for the school shooting concealed carrying thing.
I can't help but wonder how many people trying to defend themselves with firearms would of shot each other thinking they were shooting the shooter.
Adding more guns to any panic situation where the real shooter is a mystery seems like a terrible idea to me...

[pellaz]

Serious people; the cats out of the bag here and the laws are not going to change. every society has good and the bad which hopefully balances out. I really think you change one side of the equation to keep things the same you have to change the other side. If they take away the hand guns they will not lower your taxes, let you same sex marriage or free health care.

That being said its good to talk it through:
-as a gay man; pda dosnt have to mean bashed in ribs and a permanent disability for your date
-an alternative is pepper spray, Fox Labs makes a functional product
-you dont aim a gun unless you plan to shoot
-unless its you robbing the place there are social responsibilities in carrying a gun
-there are possible legal consequences even for the best situations
-we are motivated and governed by fear in the US.

[Pix]

As for the school shooting concealed carrying thing.
I can't help but wonder how many people trying to defend themselves with firearms would of shot each other thinking they were shooting the shooter.
Adding more guns to any panic situation where the real shooter is a mystery seems like a terrible idea to me...

Never happened. In case it was missed I gave an example of a thief who tried to rob a gun store filled with armed people (including a uniformed cop, crazily enough) and also a college shooting where armed students stopped the shooter. And when Charles Whitman (a former marine who used strategy and cover in a shooting at a Texas college in the 60s) opened fired he was cornered before police got there by students shooting back. None of the students shot each other.

Though I'm uncomfortable comparing Israel to the US as the circumstances are so radically different (but then there are huge differences between the US and Switzerland as well...) teachers started carrying guns in response to PLO terrorists shooting up schools and the chaos you imagine never happened there either.

So all in all I'm inclined to say that what you imagine isn't what would happen.

[Buffylo]

Access and common ownership of guns reducing gun crime, and crime rates in general is a claim that is completely unsubstantiated.
It seems to make little difference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_crime

As for the school shooting concealed carrying thing.
I can't help but wonder how many people trying to defend themselves with firearms would of shot each other thinking they were shooting the shooter.
Adding more guns to any panic situation where the real shooter is a mystery seems like a terrible idea to me...

To the first part, it is alllllllllllllllll about the culture.

To the second... when you draw a gun to deal with a threat, you don't walk around pointing at things. You have it at low ready or high ready. A shooter whose intent is to kill whatever they see has the gun aimed and begins to point it your way as soon as they see you. Shooters are easy do identify from people trained to deal with threats (CCW holders and law enforcement). Their body language is different, their level of panic is different, everything is different. The only commonality is a gun. That's it.

Despite what ye of little experience with guns (those who don't live in the States and/or dread guns like they're just going to jump up and shoot you from sitting on the table) guns sound different. Even the EXACT SAME make and model of gun firing the EXACT SAME ammunition is going to have a different report when fired. Why? they cant occupy the exact same space at the exact same time. Trained shooters CAN tell the difference between who is firing and from where they are firing. It's something anti-gun activists want you to think is impossible. They want you to think that it is absolute chaos when a gun goes off. Sorry to break it to you, but it's not.

[Genersis]

To the second... when you draw a gun to deal with a threat, you don't walk around pointing at things. You have it at low ready or high ready. A shooter whose intent is to kill whatever they see has the gun aimed and begins to point it your way as soon as they see you. Shooters are easy do identify from people trained to deal with threats (CCW holders and law enforcement). Their body language is different, their level of panic is different, everything is different. The only commonality is a gun. That's it.

Despite what ye of little experience with guns (those who don't live in the States and/or dread guns like they're just going to jump up and shoot you from sitting on the table) guns sound different. Even the EXACT SAME make and model of gun firing the EXACT SAME ammunition is going to have a different report when fired. Why? they cant occupy the exact same space at the exact same time. Trained shooters CAN tell the difference between who is firing and from where they are firing. It's something anti-gun activists want you to think is impossible. They want you to think that it is absolute chaos when a gun goes off. Sorry to break it to you, but it's not.

So in this situation, people trained in CCW are supposed to wait tell a person points their gun at them before considering them a threat and doing the same in kind(and pull the trigger of course, if they're lucky)?

What if the person who goes on a shooting is also trained to CCW?
Will the person still be easy to tell apart from a person trained to CCW who is trying to defend themselves from the shooter?

I do not think it likely that most people who have never been a panic situation with gun shots going off and their life in danger would somehow manage to remain calm and easily able to identify someone that has malicious intent, from people like themselves.

And no, i'm not buying the idea that someone in that kind of situation will easily notice a different firing sound and think "Oh, it mustn't be the shooter, someone else must be the shooter".
Especially as it's likely that the person in question has heard both guns firing beforehand.
Yes guns sound different, and i doubt most would care to take note of what firing sound is the shooter.

You have a lot of trust in people with their lives on the line to take chances.
Especially as people normally carry guns not to take chances.

Perhaps I just don't think highly of people in panic situations.
That and i seriously doubt people trained to CCW are as extensively trained as you make out.

It seems you know through first hand experience though, judging by how you've written that last paragraph.