Going back to the first post. I think Strangerr's issue is not so much his personal preference in men, but the general stereotypes of what a gay bottom man is supposed to act and be like.
He is being told by both Straight and Gay communities that there is something wrong with him because he flat refuses to nelly up, swish, be more effeminate.
The straight community makes it clear that to be gay you have to have a sense of fashion, you have to swish, lisp and be limp wristed.
A comedian can stand up in front of a crowd, hold up his arm and let his hand go limp - the whole crowd knows that that is the universal sign of 'homosexual'.
The Gay community does it in their own way: Most likely when Strangrr goes to the bar he gets hit on by a lot of bottoms who presume that because he doesn't lisp, or doesn't swish, or doesn't let his wrist go limp that he is a 'top'.
How do I know? It happened to me way too often. 'Straight acting' or being 'butch' is pretty much a sign of being a total top.
Its the stereotype which our society is holding on to with a death grip that continually sends a message that in order to be a 'good' gay bottom you need to swish a little, lisp a little and take on more 'womanly' traits to be recognized and fully accepted as a 'bottom'.
No doubt if Queen Odi and I were put in the same room with a bunch of straights who were asked 'Who is the gay?' Queen Odi would get most of the votes for gay and I would get most of the votes for straight.
The assumption being that anyone who uses the world 'Gurl' is automatically gay and anyone who doesn't is automatically straight...
Put us with our 'peers' (other gays) and ask 'Who's the bottom?' Queen Odi would get all the votes while it would be assumed I'm a top... Again the assumption that bottoms use the word 'Gurl' and tops don't.
Anyone here care to disagree with these two scenarios?
I'm surprised that no one has told Strangrr he has internalized homophobia. After all he admitted to not being interested in effeminate gay men - that usually gets a reply of 'well you have problems accepting homosexuality, this is a clear sign that you are struggling with your own homophobia.'
Masculinity in a gay man also gets its far share of 'hate'... The Bears V Twinks thread points that one out 'hyper masculinity' is being confused as being some sort of 'issue with homosexuality'.
Even the label that is applied to masculine/butch gay men 'Straight Acting' makes it sound like we are pretending to be the men we are...
So its the stereotypes that Strangerr is having issues with. And yeah being faced with that day after day after day will make on a little pissy if they don't fit into that role that society apparently thinks one must fit in.
![[-]](https://gayspeak.com/images/duende_v3_local/collapse.png)
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^^
That made a lot of sense.
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Bowyn Aerrow Wrote:So its the stereotypes that Strangerr is having issues with. And yeah being faced with that day after day after day will make on a little pissy if they don't fit into that role that society apparently thinks one must fit in.
wow! this summarizes what i wanted , but failed to explain.
Bowyn Aerrow Wrote:I'm surprised that no one has told Strangrr he has internalized homophobia. After all he admitted to not being interested in effeminate gay men - that usually gets a reply of 'well you have problems accepting homosexuality, this is a clear sign that you are struggling with your own homophobia.'
i don't think i am homophobic; i worked at an NGO and there were a few transgender persons whom i used to have lunch, and even hang out with . i am very open minded guy.
it just pisses me off that when people assume that in order to be " something", which could be anything, you have to act in a " specific" way.
Edit: even the phrase "str8 acting" is bullsh*t. you can't be "str8 acting" and give BJs to other men. i think it is made up by gays who are ashamed of being gay.
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I love you guys and want you to throw all the darts and nukes and ninja stars and Vin Diesels and LL Cool J's that your hearts desire
But don't stop there
(get creative)
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Too many labels 
I love all men, but I prefer masculine acting men. My dating history shows otherwise but I'd prefer a masculine partner. S
As for the OP's statement, I can thankfully be an example of your own opinion. I am versatile but I prefer to be a bottom, saying that I am rather forceful and prefer to be a masculine bottom. I tend to take control and enjoy it much more than being dominated.
For me, my partners might think they are tops but I am the one that dominates them  even if I am the one getting diccked.
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Shiner Wrote:Too many labels
I love all men, but I prefer masculine acting men. My dating history shows otherwise but I'd prefer a masculine partner. S
As for the OP's statement, I can thankfully be an example of your own opinion. I am versatile but I prefer to be a bottom, saying that I am rather forceful and prefer to be a masculine bottom. I tend to take control and enjoy it much more than being dominated.
For me, my partners might think they are tops but I am the one that dominates them even if I am the one getting diccked.
I'd like to think that probably that's also how many women feel when they're being "taken". Who's actually taking who? Who's milking who?
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strangerrr Wrote:wow! this summarizes what i wanted , but failed to explain.
i don't think i am homophobic; i worked at an NGO and there were a few transgender persons whom i used to have lunch, and even hang out with . i am very open minded guy.
it just pisses me off that when people assume that in order to be "something", which could be anything, you have to act in a "specific" way.
Edit: even the phrase "str8 acting" is bullsh*t. you can't be "str8 acting" and give BJs to other men. i think it is made up by gays who are ashamed of being gay.
I don't think it has anything to do with hating who we are, just more likely to do with the fact that people would normally not suspect that you are gay, and I'm sure there are quite a few gay men out there, who don't mince and go around with limp wrists, or whatever the clichés are.
We are definitely very much a product of our upbringing in that respect. Just as easy as it is to camp it up, it's probably second nature to a lot of us to imitate the ways we've seen masculinity around us, ie "straight acting", which generally means UNcamp.
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@ Bowyn, I don't know so much if Strangerr has internalised homophobia (don't we all, to some extent, given how society has treated us through the years, even if it' gradually becoming more accepted?) as he's the product of his upbringing and the surroundings in which he grew up. It would be difficult to model ourselves on gay role models when we haven't had any, so whatever comes up is usually an imitation either or one's mother or father, or the female or male attitudes that exist in society. It is just possible that Strangerr has always adopted a rather masculine approach to his demeanour, even if it meant choosing to go with his gay leanings later in life.
Basically, I think we're all putting on an act, especially when in front of a crowd, another person, amongst other people or our peers, etc... I am surely not the same person with my family, with my classes, with my boyfriend, or when onstage for a specific role or purpose... Because of the stigma of being gay, in some places, it's very easy for us to become the chameleons, to blend in with the setting, but inside we always feel that we're not quite part of the picture.
Knowing that human sexuality is so subtle, I wonder how many of us are total tops, or total bottoms, or versatile, proportionately? Might that not also be a matter of self discovery and of experience?
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Bowyn Aerrow Wrote:Going back to the first post. I think Strangerr's issue is not so much his personal preference in men, but the general stereotypes of what a gay bottom man is supposed to act and be like.
He is being told by both Straight and Gay communities that there is something wrong with him because he flat refuses to nelly up, swish, be more effeminate.
The straight community makes it clear that to be gay you have to have a sense of fashion, you have to swish, lisp and be limp wristed.
A comedian can stand up in front of a crowd, hold up his arm and let his hand go limp - the whole crowd knows that that is the universal sign of 'homosexual'.
The Gay community does it in their own way: Most likely when Strangrr goes to the bar he gets hit on by a lot of bottoms who presume that because he doesn't lisp, or doesn't swish, or doesn't let his wrist go limp that he is a 'top'.
How do I know? It happened to me way too often. 'Straight acting' or being 'butch' is pretty much a sign of being a total top.
Its the stereotype which our society is holding on to with a death grip that continually sends a message that in order to be a 'good' gay bottom you need to swish a little, lisp a little and take on more 'womanly' traits to be recognized and fully accepted as a 'bottom'.
No doubt if Queen Odi and I were put in the same room with a bunch of straights who were asked 'Who is the gay?' Queen Odi would get most of the votes for gay and I would get most of the votes for straight.
The assumption being that anyone who uses the world 'Gurl' is automatically gay and anyone who doesn't is automatically straight...
Put us with our 'peers' (other gays) and ask 'Who's the bottom?' Queen Odi would get all the votes while it would be assumed I'm a top... Again the assumption that bottoms use the word 'Gurl' and tops don't.
Anyone here care to disagree with these two scenarios?
I'm surprised that no one has told Strangrr he has internalized homophobia. After all he admitted to not being interested in effeminate gay men - that usually gets a reply of 'well you have problems accepting homosexuality, this is a clear sign that you are struggling with your own homophobia.'
Masculinity in a gay man also gets its far share of 'hate'... The Bears V Twinks thread points that one out 'hyper masculinity' is being confused as being some sort of 'issue with homosexuality'.
Even the label that is applied to masculine/butch gay men 'Straight Acting' makes it sound like we are pretending to be the men we are...
So its the stereotypes that Strangerr is having issues with. And yeah being faced with that day after day after day will make on a little pissy if they don't fit into that role that society apparently thinks one must fit in.
^I agree with this^
But I would also add that one has to recognize the differences associated with different cultures as well. Strangerr referred to this particular affront having occurred in Turkey. The Turkish culture, as well as other culture with well-defined, hyper-masculinized ideals of manhood, are extremely prone to this type of thinking. Why?
Cultures with hyper-masculine, well-defined sex-roles, also have highly defined, hyper-feminine sex roles. These roles are a pervasive part of their culture and usually include well-defined ways for different genders to dress, speak and act.
Homosexuality, in fact ANY alternative sexuality, threatens these paradigms because it challenges the very basis on which they are built. Men MUST act one way and women must act another. When male homosexuality enters the picture in these cultures, an often seen cultural response is to diminish the homosexual male to a type of third class citizen, one who has more in common with the women of that culture. These are the only "acceptable" roles for gay men in these societies. Masculine gay men are seen as a greater threat because they threaten the very foundation of the stereotypes associated with strong, well-defined, gender roles.
Mexican culture, another culture with a historical gender-role bias, has done this same thing in addressing male homosexuality. Gay men are not accepted societally, in general. However, transgenders, feminine gay men, and drag queens ARE accepted (to some degree) as long as they accept a subservient, traditionally feminine role. In fact, many macho, supposedly straight, Mexican men will willingly have sex with a feminine man (bottom) and not have their sexuality or their masculinity questioned.
So, to make a long story short (oh...I guess I blew that one) I think that Strangerr's comments are more a reflection of his frustration with cultural gender stereotypes than they are about him personally. So, I completely understand what he is saying.
Final note: The spiel above is why every gay man should be a feminist, in my opinion. Aside from the fact that altruistically, ALL people share an inherent value. For gay men to achieve full and equal standing with their straight male counterparts, cultures must first accept women as equal partners as well. These societal battles over sex, sexuality, gender, and gender roles are all part of the same scenario. If the culture at large cannot even accept the other gender as an equal player, how do we ever expect it to accept an alternate gender role?
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I think it's the clear majority of gay men here who prefer masculine men. I suspect that's true of real life as well but like many people who are in the clear majority they tend to overlook agreement and exaggerate the few who take issue with it.
It's also like that among lesbians, masculine lesbians tend to have a hard time being accepted as romantic interests (though I keep reading that this was very different decades ago and started changing in the 70s).
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Bottoms don't get hard!
