I think I remember saying in the "what grinds my gears" thread that passive-aggressive posts like the one preceding mine here really grind my gears. Good job being mature about it, but I'm glad you have put me on ignore again. I just had to speak out there because it was the right thing to do. I stand up against bullies. Cheers.
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East Wrote:so I will defend anyone...whether I agree with them or not...to say and behave in any manner they wish as long as they do not directly harm someone else.
YEAH… that is the modern trend… you must be proud… what a bright future we have.
So maybe its ok if they cause indirect harm…
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I have never been to a pride parade, I don't know what it's all about. All I know of them is what I have seen in pictures and heard from others. I personally don't think I will ever attend any such event. Now attractive young men in skimpy shorts always seems to push my buttons just right but costume capering and other such antics I find irritating. Especially when done by full grown people. Same reason I don't go to anime conventions and scifi conventions. I don't like that gay people are portrayed by the most ridiculous among us, but that is the truth about any group. I can say I am Christian and people think westburough Baptist church, I have even been ridiculed by gay people telling me that Christianity is anti gay. People get pigeon holed for many reasons. I am pretty sure if the crossdressing and outlandish costumes were denounced and removed (not the sexy guys in skimpy shorts...oh my) nothing would change. Next it would be the way gay people talk or the way they walk or the way they comb their hair, the brand of clothes they wear, on and on and on.
Coming out has really taken the pressure of me to conform and do what is manly. Though I never really had an issue with liking ballet and so forth. Some things I used to avoid when I was trying to be straight have become part of my life. I like my trendy hair style though it really isn't that odd. Wearing a pink shirt or liking flowers all things I kept hidden for fear of being called homo. But after being out for a few years I tried on some ladies clothes at first it was fun but not my cup of tea. I would have never done such things when trying to be straight for fear it would dum dum dum...make me gay (gasp!). After my experimenting and messing around with this and that I really realized I am a rather manly masculine guy. I dress like any other straight guy, I walk like a cop (i wore a policemans "batbelt" for four years and soon to be wearing it again {fingers crossed} and a body armor vest) so I kind of walk robotically a little cowboy swagger in my step I did grow up in Texas. I speak in my booming baritone voice. Nothing overt that would identify me as a gay guy (aside from a good looking fellow catching my eyes). It doesn't really seem to matter to people. I told my cousin (who not two years before told me he had some sexual fetishes and I completely accepted his secret) after which I figured he would be open and accepting. I just wanted him to know so hewould quit trying to fix me up with ladies. This was the conversation. Cousin said, "hey I have this chick you have to meet"
I replied, "i am not interested"
Cousin, "what is up with you she is hot and you haven't been with a lady in years?"
Me, "I am gay"
Cousin, "Damn dude like lipstick wearing drag queen gay?"
This cousin had never once seen me dress up, wear any make up or even remotely be considered a drag queen.
There is really nothing one can do about preconceived notions. We just have to accept that some gay people are ultra fabulous, unaware that they have put on 30 lbs since the last time they wore that Speedo, or not aware they would make a better king Kong than Elizabeth Taylor. Or that ultra short leather pants with spikes on them and a bridal with knee high linemens boots are far from fashionable, and even a bit inappropriate on main street in broad day light. These people do get the camera attention, that was the goal. My revealing of my sexuality normally is followed by, "wow, I can't believe you are gay." Or, "i would have never guessed." To wit I respond, I am only Cleopatra's bigger broader beefier deep voiced yet way sexier sister on the weekends. It's great the responses I get to that. Ha ha ha ha ha.
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partis Wrote:So maybe its ok if they cause indirect harm…
I feel like everyone has the right to say whatever they want and express themselves however they want. Freedom of Speech and all that jazz. But people also have the right to disagree and get angry at those people for the things they do. I hear all the time that Eminem has a bunch of homophobic lyrics in his music, and whenever someone rags on him for it, his fans come in swarms to defend him. Saying stuff like "He's not a homophobe. He's said so himself. He's a rapper and rappers use words like that to bring people down all the time. It's like tradition. Get over it. He doesn't owe anyone an apology. Blah blah blah." Even though I disagree and I don't think there should be any excuse to use hateful words, I'm not gonna say Eminem needs to be stopped or anything like that. I just won't listen to his music. I hate hip hop and rap anyway. :/
But if you're saying things that cause indirect harm is still unacceptable (I assume you were being sarcastic), then maybe Eminem does need to be stopped. After all, continuing to use homosexuality in a negative way in music that's broadcasted to millions definitely isn't stopping the spread of hateful homophobia. Of course I'm just using Eminem as an example here.
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Just to recentre the debate, Partis says he feels embarrassed by the EXTREME conduct of some people in Gay Prides and is annoyed by the outwardly too sexual nature of what some people display or depict in the public sphere.... So why not join HOPE, if you wish, Partis, and see how you can find some solutions to make the prides more acceptable in your eyes and maybe a lot of other people's eyes.
However, I think Partis's ideas about gay prides are fuelled only by the extremes that he has seen. Have you been or seen a real gay pride in real life, Partis?
I went to my first pride this year, in Norwich. I was not reluctant, but I was a little bit wary. I thought I could probably handle it, though. It wasn't an opportunity for me to display my sexuality, but an opportunity to go with my partner and hold hands and wear a rainbow costume, in the middle of a family crowd of well wishers and like minded people (people who believe in the freedom of having whatever sexual orientation you want). There were groups of all kinds, mostly, they were family groups and the emphasis was definitely NOT on the leather crowd, or the bears, or anything too sexual.
What annoyed me was the lack of any political claim in the speeches, at a time when we know that Uganda was trying to criminalise Gays and at a time when Russia was hardening its laws against what they call gay propaganda. The lack of all political or social agenda was a big shame and a bit of a waste of good time and good crowds.
For the rest it was a colourful march through some of the main streets of Norwich, on a warm, sunny day with families and children in tow. There were some songs, a few drag queens making a point, a few speakers for associations dealing with homophobia, bullying in schools or the work place, still a few associations for improvement in the world of AIDS and HIV, a recognition of the marriage bill that is soon to be enforced in the UK, and even a dance school which did a demonstration of same-sex couples dancing ballroom (which was fun)... but nothing that reminded us that the world was still a pretty foul place for people in our condition. Nothing showing that we, as a group of individuals and those who support us, could make a difference on the world scene to bring other gays and lesbians their human rights to justice and fairness. In other words it was complacent. To me that's a dirty word.
That part of pride that should have kept us edgy was completely trashed. Why? Probably because the organising committee was not interested in making this pride anything other than a cosy family outing. That's where I think that a few "shockers" are probably necessary. Gay Pride should be as much a party, as a reminder of the movement's history or an opportunity to continue to put forward claims. The overt sexuality is not necessary, I agree.
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partis Wrote:YEAH… that is the modern trend… you must be proud… what a bright future we have.
So maybe its ok if they cause indirect harm…
Maybe East is adopting a live and let live attitude because it would be very difficult, not to say impossible, to criminalise every slur, every rant, every disagreement, every insult without sliding into a dictatorship.
Plus, to make improvements, even if it's not something we want to hear, we need to be faced with criticism occasionally, otherwise we would not progress.
How does one grade the nature of harm? When does one intervene, how does one intervene? We have developed things like tact, awareness, but also honesty and frankness... How much of the one and of the other is necessary to keep society together and bring social cohesion? It's tough to juggle all these things and keep balance.
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Dreamer Wrote:I don't see anything wrong with gay pride parades.
It consists of a community celebrating one part of themselves that unites them, one little part that many in this world are still scared of... one big part that many who attend those parades otherwise suppress and hide during every other day of each year... so fucking what if they have one celebratory event to attend that comprises of hundreds to thousands of others just like them, where they can feel safe and "at home" to be themselves 100%? That sense of community can, have, and will continue to open minds and save lives.
Straight people have celebrated their sexualities from the early beginnings of man-kind to up until right now in every microscopic aspect of everyday life, and it's rubbed in my face everywhere I turn... TV, music, commercials, advertisements, on the streets, in the stores I go to, not to mention their own celebrations like Mardi Gras, etc.... we have one silly parade, once a year, in cities across the world.... with that in consideration, who are the "extreme" ones?
Where's the gay organization in which I can join opposed to hetero pride extremism?
Congratulations on thinking you'd have the inner-strength to hypothetically deal with every form of gay discrimination and oppression that exists all by yourself, but many people can't and shouldn't have to go it alone, or accept it without fighting back.... many who try end up 6 ft in the ground by either their own hand or that of another.
If gay pride parades aren't for you, don't watch or attend one.
Your sense of embarrassment has nothing to do with gay pride celebrations, but everything to do with you alone. Thanks, this struck a chord with me...
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First of all Tony, gurl, Hip Hop and Rap is not about putting people down or whatever. It was actually meant as an expression for poor ghetto ass black people, in the same light as Negro Spirituals and has only in modern times become a medium through which rappers now brag of what they got as opposed to what they dont.
I do not think that and this subject are related. To turn the phrase "Two different ball games"
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Now secondly, I dont know if I was clear enough, but Partis, you should try to understand, being gay from a country/place where being gay is a death sentence or near enough to one, is no easy thing, and so as opposed to England, which is like Gay HQ, we would tend to appreciate it more.
I think its that you don't know what you have and take it for granted. Live in the Middle East for awhile and see how if you don't go running to a Gay Pride in transparent underwear and a headress and hulahoop earrings.
Speaking from the outside, I think gay pride is really not as bad as people make it seem and Axander made some very valid points.
We're entitled to how we feel and think, but to try and bring down that which gives people freedom, hope and happiness, is not very cute :/
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princealbertofb Wrote:What annoyed me was the lack of any political claim in the speeches, at a time when we know that Uganda was trying to criminalise Gays and at a time when Russia was hardening its laws against what they call gay propaganda. The lack of all political or social agenda was a big shame and a bit of a waste of good time and good crowds.
If I remind correctly, in Paris there often is some "Amnesty international" like associations (don't remember exactly) to make people aware about what happens in the world.
Each time I went to the Parisian pride, I saw all gay associations (religious, political, or others) represented so it is the occasion to be known by those who need them (I think of religious associations that help a lot those who have problems combining religion, tradition and their sexuality, which somehow concerns me). Also, as said before, lots of STD preventions.
And it was also funny. This sexuality part is not to be taken seriously. I didn't find this outrageously gross. The only thing that bothered me was the commercial aspect, companies which take benefits of the moment to sell their product to gay people who are obviously the best commercial target...
I don't exagerate when I say it contributed to make me feel better about my sexuality And it is the case of friends of mine also...and we haven't become queers with a plum stuck in the ass yet. :p
I must admit I'm a bit surprized to read such knee-jerk reactions on this topic. People should go to a gay pride, just to see, and then make their opinion.
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partis Wrote:Your opinion… I know what i think, and yeah it's embarrassing and I imagine it can even do harm, influencing people who are already homophobic.
I'm not going to watch or attend one, and they shouldn't pretend to speak for everyone.
And they don't have straight parades.
On one level, I don't mind but don't tell me they're doing it for anything else than to show off and act foolishly.
Gay Prides don't claim to speak for everyone, nor everyone who is gay or lesbian or transgendered, or bisexual.... But there can be as many sub groups in the parade as wish to be represented. You could go to the parade and have a group of people who don't want sexual extremism in the parade there too. Those who go to prides are those who think they should be there and should be counted.
Ok, so you don't mind pride parades, but you don't mind telling us what YOUR perceived reasons for us going to a pride are. That's rich!  Well, I'll tell you why I went to this pride parade. I can't claim to tell you why the other participants went. I don't know. What I can tell you is that I didn't want or need to SHOW OFF and ACT FOOLISHLY. I am also sure, from what I experienced, that it wasn't the other participants' main purpose either. My impression was that it was to keep it as NORMAL and yet DIVERSE as possible: a celebration of diversity and normalcy.
I've only been to one pride for the moment and I'm 54. I don't think I should go to a pride. I should be too old for this.
If I went, it was to see what it's like for myself, to support my partner who feels there are still quite a lot of things going on in the world that need political or social groups or organisations to fight against, even if it's not in the UK itself. I won't claim that the Pride Parade I went to gave me every satisfaction. It didn't, but it didn't precisely because it wasn't sufficiently "LOUD" or "VOCAL". However, it wasn't pointless, far from it. It celebrated the positive transformations in society.
I suggest, if you want to get a good grassroots grasp of what a pride parade is, you should take part in one or go and see one as a spectator, at least. It may not be as scary or embarrassing as you think, and it may open your eyes to how the media can distort what goes on in one. The media LOVE the shocking bits, as it gives them an angle to titillate the punters.
Is there one in your part of the UK? I wouldn't suggest Brighton or Manchester since those don't appeal to you.
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