I could easily fill this box with a long story, but I think it's probably better if I go with just the high overview: My partner and I have been together nearly 4 years. When we got together, we acknowledged that there could be some difficulty with intimacy. We have 3 primary obstacles: 1) We both have a strong preference to top (and he has never been able to bottom with me); 2) Neither of us is keen on initiating sex; 3) I have a lower than average sex drive.
Recently he has told me that he's not sure about our relationship anymore. It's broken because we lack intimacy. We both acknowledge that all other factors are really great between us, only this one major component is flawed.
I love him more than I can effectively express and I am eager to find a way to "fix" our broken relationship. But I'm not certain it's possible. I can't imagine that we are the first gay couple in history to go through this, so I thought I might see if anyone has advice.
Can I learn to be a good bottom? I've read a number of posts here and elsewhere about the "how", but my question is whether I can learn to do it so that it's not just passable, but it's really good, like all other aspects of our marriage.
I'm trying not to despair, but I'm at the end of my rope. Please tell me that there's still hope for us!
![[-]](https://gayspeak.com/images/duende_v3_local/collapse.png)
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Anything can be learnt if you put your mind into it.
Also instead of ending the relationship, have you thought about maybe opening up the relationship a little.
If you have got nothing left to loose why not pickup a guy that you can both top, maybe you can learn a thing or two by watching someone else be a bottom for your partner.
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Topping and bottoming are often more than just positions in bed. There is a bit more to having ones dick in another and having another's dick in you beyond simple lust and pleasure.
There are secondary emotions that come into play, a sense of security a sense of being the 'security'... It all ties into the role of men and women over millions of years of evolution. Granted we are talking two men, but there are good reasons why a majority of bottoms are also passive out of bed and more 'soft' than their top counterparts.
Consider why it is you have the strong preference to top. When you are topping a partner that you love, other than the 'good feelings' around your dick, what other emotions are you feeling toward your partner? Now for those emotions you feel while being the top, the bottom often has the opposite harmonizing feeling. If you are feeling more protective, he is feeling more protected. If you are feeling 'more in charge' he is feeling quite happy that you are in charge.
So sex roles is often a lot more complicated than just the active of who inserts what into whom.
I can see why there is trouble in initiating if one of you are doing something you really do not want to do. One you have the low sex drive, then you are doing the chore of bottoming all the time. He most likely is afraid to ask to put you out and might actually be kicking himself somewhere deep inside that he is unable (most likely willing, but not able) to give to you that himself.
Can you learn to be a good bottom? Sure - you can learn to be anything you want to be. Will you like it? Will you ever get the full range of emotions that a true bottom gets when being topped by his man? I don't know, I don't think so.
It is those secondary emotions that often feed a couples intimacy moments. Its not just the act itself in 'can I moan loudly enough and in a manner that tells him this feels good (even if I don't like it)?' its a whole attitude of submission, of passivity that you may not be able to pull off as the more passive 'accepting' role.
When 'finished' do you say something like 'please don't pull out?' If not that can be a huge clue to him that you ain't into this. Do you want him laying on top of you staying inside of you or do you want him off so you can go clean up ASAP? Your answer to that may be sending signals you do not intend to be sending, but are being sent nonetheless.
What about other areas of intimacy? Like hugging. Who is the hugger and who is the hugged?
Tell me, who is the bottom and who is the top in this image:
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l2i1ql...o1_500.jpg
Or this one: http://www.flickr.com/photos/carbonnyc/2536483214/
Or this one: http://guyscuddling.tumblr.com/image/614521073
The reason why we can look and see who is the 'top' and who is the 'bottom' is because we all have preconceived notions of the role in the relationship outside of bed that these two aspects take place.
Like it or not, guys who prefer to be top also often prefer to be the more dominant individual in all other aspects of the relationship. Its evolution and social structures and we are all raised to follow straight rules and regulations.
Outside of bed how does this all work out for you? Do you all cuddle, hug, and have spooning sessions? If not why? (These are questions you ask yourself, I don't want answers to them).
If you do spoon and hug and cuddle (I suspect not often at all), then who is the holder and who is the held more often than not? Does both parties enjoy that position or are they doing it because they feel they must to keep their partner happy?
Yes, undoubtedly you two are great friends. And most likely do share a lot of similar interests besides liking to top the boys.
However, are you two really lovers or more of a bromance couple?
I can't answer that for you.
After investing 4 years of your life to him and he to you, I would suggest you try couples counseling to see if you all can work some workaround here. You both are 'tops' and need to have a bottom - occasionally. Perhaps not solely who gets plowed and who does the plowing in bed but in other areas.
Perhaps this sex thing is an expression of other lacks, other issues of intimacy? If you don't know, a therapist will help you both to figure out what is really going on.
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Bowyn Aerrow Wrote:Topping and bottoming are often more than just positions in bed. There is a bit more to having ones dick in another and having another's dick in you beyond simple lust and pleasure.
There are secondary emotions that come into play, a sense of security a sense of being the 'security'... It all ties into the role of men and women over millions of years of evolution. Granted we are talking two men, but there are good reasons why a majority of bottoms are also passive out of bed and more 'soft' than their top counterparts.
Consider why it is you have the strong preference to top. When you are topping a partner that you love, other than the 'good feelings' around your dick, what other emotions are you feeling toward your partner? Now for those emotions you feel while being the top, the bottom often has the opposite harmonizing feeling. If you are feeling more protective, he is feeling more protected. If you are feeling 'more in charge' he is feeling quite happy that you are in charge.
So sex roles is often a lot more complicated than just the active of who inserts what into whom.
I can see why there is trouble in initiating if one of you are doing something you really do not want to do. One you have the low sex drive, then you are doing the chore of bottoming all the time. He most likely is afraid to ask to put you out and might actually be kicking himself somewhere deep inside that he is unable (most likely willing, but not able) to give to you that himself.
Can you learn to be a good bottom? Sure - you can learn to be anything you want to be. Will you like it? Will you ever get the full range of emotions that a true bottom gets when being topped by his man? I don't know, I don't think so.
It is those secondary emotions that often feed a couples intimacy moments. Its not just the act itself in 'can I moan loudly enough and in a manner that tells him this feels good (even if I don't like it)?' its a whole attitude of submission, of passivity that you may not be able to pull off as the more passive 'accepting' role.
When 'finished' do you say something like 'please don't pull out?' If not that can be a huge clue to him that you ain't into this. Do you want him laying on top of you staying inside of you or do you want him off so you can go clean up ASAP? Your answer to that may be sending signals you do not intend to be sending, but are being sent nonetheless.
What about other areas of intimacy? Like hugging. Who is the hugger and who is the hugged?
Tell me, who is the bottom and who is the top in this image:
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l2i1ql...o1_500.jpg
Or this one: http://www.flickr.com/photos/carbonnyc/2536483214/
Or this one: http://guyscuddling.tumblr.com/image/614521073
The reason why we can look and see who is the 'top' and who is the 'bottom' is because we all have preconceived notions of the role in the relationship outside of bed that these two aspects take place.
Like it or not, guys who prefer to be top also often prefer to be the more dominant individual in all other aspects of the relationship. Its evolution and social structures and we are all raised to follow straight rules and regulations.
Outside of bed how does this all work out for you? Do you all cuddle, hug, and have spooning sessions? If not why? (These are questions you ask yourself, I don't want answers to them).
If you do spoon and hug and cuddle (I suspect not often at all), then who is the holder and who is the held more often than not? Does both parties enjoy that position or are they doing it because they feel they must to keep their partner happy?
Yes, undoubtedly you two are great friends. And most likely do share a lot of similar interests besides liking to top the boys.
However, are you two really lovers or more of a bromance couple?
I can't answer that for you.
After investing 4 years of your life to him and he to you, I would suggest you try couples counseling to see if you all can work some workaround here. You both are 'tops' and need to have a bottom - occasionally. Perhaps not solely who gets plowed and who does the plowing in bed but in other areas.
Perhaps this sex thing is an expression of other lacks, other issues of intimacy? If you don't know, a therapist will help you both to figure out what is really going on. I dont know about you RD gurl, but I can agree with Bowyn, gays tend to not like it so much, but on some systemic level, He's right.
Granted, Versatility is always around, but I honestly believe people gravitate more towards a particular "type" or common idiosyncratic expression of one's self, which many despise and would call a label.
Try out Bowyns's approach. Assess that relationship gurl.
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Hi,
Partnerships are about give and take but sharing and compromise mostly.
If both of you are willing to meet in the middle on this one of course there is hope.
I don't agree with acquiring a bottom as that can mess with your emotions. Making love regularly is so important as it opens up so many other things as well as communication channels.
Talk to him. If both of you are willing to try you have a chance but if not it will be difficult.
Good Luck
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If you are basing your relationship on sex, then you were doomed from the start.
Sex is not the "end all", "be all", "most important thing to live"...........it is a SMALL aspect of a relationship.
You both apparently refuse to work with each other on this subject to figure out how to live with each other. So..........and I hate advising people to see them............but I would say you two need couples counseling. You need a third party intervention........a different perspective. Sometimes you need an outsider to point out things that the two of you may not see.
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Thank you all for your suggestions and support. To answer some of the questions:
1) We did try the open relationship thing. I won't go into detail but suffice it to say that wasn't a good option for our situation.
2) I'm not sure if it's because it's natural or adapted, but in our relationship neither of us is especially dominant all the time. We frequently trade off according to our strengths and interests. Your question about the cuddling and holding: yes it's not all that frequent, but I'm not an especially touchy feely person. But we do hug often and we cuddle up together and hand-holding is pretty much a given when we're together. When I think about it, I would probably say that he holds me more often than I him.
3) While it wasn't a question you posed, you encouraged me to ask myself, by outward appearances - what roles would others think we have in the relationship. I'd bet that the majority would assume I am the bottom. We're both tall, but he's a bit taller and more broad than I am. And while my torso has always been naturally smooth, he's quite hairy.
4) In truth, when I first came out, I didn't know what role to take. In my first relationship I was the top - but then I was with someone who was very much a bottom. In my second relationship I was the bottom. Then I had a couple where we were versatile. But my longest relationship prior to this one, I was exclusively the top. But looking at those relationships through the knowledge you've imparted, I can see where other aspects of our roles matched the sexual ones.
5) I don't believe the initiating thing is related to desire. I've never been good at initiating, in any relationship. He's said that his longest relationship was with an aggressive bottom, so initiating was never an issue.
All that said, no I wouldn't have a problem being in a passive role in bed. And the idea of being protected is appealing to me. So long as I don't have to give up dominance in all areas. :-)
Again, thanks for your help. I still have a lot of anxiety and questions, but this has been very helpful.
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Well that isn't too bad.
The whole power structure of a relationship can be and often is complex. Many couples that strive for 'equality' in their relationship end up fighting about every aspect of the relationship, who leads when we are doing _______________ (fill in the blank)?
So if you two have got it mostly figured out who leads when we are doing ___________ (fill in the blank) are are a step or many ahead of many other couples.
What about romance? Do you all have romance in your relationship? (I don't need an answer, you are asking yourself this).
Initiating romance (not sex) may be easier for you (and/or him) there isn't the tension there.
As an EXAMPLE: With my ex of 14 years, I would make his lunch. He had a thing for hard-boiled eggs - so I would almost always pack in a couple hard-boiled eggs. But I rarely left them just as eggs, I would pull out my multicolored sharpie set and decorate the eggs with funny faces, or I (heart) U and other 'silly' stuff. Its the little stuff (not just sex) that determines the general overall health of a relationship.
Now to focus on you a bit, why the low sex drive? (Again I don't need an answer). Have you addressed this with your doctor, ruling out a plethora of medical reasons? Or are you on specific medication(s) that cause this? If is medications, ever consider changing them up to find one that allows your sex drive to be higher?
Many couples rely on 'appointment sex'. The 'Friday night special' is what I call it, where the couple plans ahead to set aside the hour between X program and Y program on TV to have sex. Yeah I know it sounds cold and calculating, but it actually does work for a lot of couples.
As for initiating, there are a lot of sites on the web: https://www.google.com/#q=how+to+initiat...my+partner
I would suggest that BOTH of you sit down at computer and investigate the subject.
Yeah I know, neither one of you enjoy initiating sex, well perhaps this is something you two can take turns on doing?
Lastly, Couples Counseling is a valid option and there is no shame in going to one. Not only will a Counselor assist you two in the sex department, but you may discover that there are other areas which need a tune up. Having a third impartial person look at your relationship from the outside may reveal other issues which are affecting you all and making the sex thing look like a bigger problem than it really is.
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Thanks again Bowyn. Your advice is very insightful and gets me to thinking on a number of things that I believe we can work on.
As far as the sex drive, it may be psychological. It's pretty much always been the case with me.
I've scheduled an appointment with a psychologist to help me with these things. I've deliberately selected one who also offers couples counseling and who's familiar with gay/lesbian issues.
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As far as initiating sex, here is a "no pressure" method another couple told me back when I was also married. It's kind of cute actually, and it gives a simple signal without any drama.
Find a place in your house to put one of those thick, tall candles (maybe in your bedroom). Leave it there, it becomes a symbol.
Sit down and talk about the "ground rules" revolving the candle so everyone understands and there are no hurt feelings.
Here is the gig, if one of you are "in the mood", you simply light the candle, that's it. That gives the other one a "sign" so they know you're feeling like being intimate.
However, if the other person is not in the mood, then they blow out the candle.
Now here is the important part which has to be stressed and understood. If the candle gets blown out, the other person cannot get upset, out or cop an attitude. The other person might just be tired or stressed out or just not in the mood, so blowing out the candle should not be taken personally. If the ground rules are set up and everyone plays nice, it's kind of a cool "symbol" to the other one that, if you want to, I'd like to share myself with you tonight.
Anyway, it works for some (rather than playing the mind games to see if they are in the mood) and it doesn't work for others. Just an idea...
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