I refrain from the discussion of religion.
Mainly because if I start I start quoting scripture and pointing to doctrine then I reveal the horrible hidden truth that I have a D. Min and was almost a friar and still believe (currently I'm having a crises of faith - nothing new there) and it gets ugly.
I remain silent because there is that whole 'judge not let ye be judged' and Lastly I understand that the real issue is not so much The Church, but personalities over principles.
That last I learned in AA rooms 
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Religion, as a whole, isn't anti-gay. However, the three Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) are, on a foundational level, very much anti-gay. It is only by delusional mental gymnastics that a person can arrive at a position of acceptance of homosexuality on the basis of the scriptures of those faiths. The only thing more tragically ironic than a black Christian is a gay Christian.
Religions outside the Abrahamic triad have a much more accepting view of homosexuality. In Native American theologies, homosexuals are revered and accepted among their tribes.
It's all nonsense, but if you're the type of person that needs to believe unsubstantiated fairy tales, at least have the decency to avoid the barbarity of the god of Abraham.
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*looks out from under curtain* Psst!
Pssst!
I'm Christian and I married an Atheist, Bill. No problems.
*waits for heads to explode*
*grins*
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What I don't like is how people allow the Christian Right to determine "what Christianity is." There are so many versions out there that it's a cafeteria, people take what they want from the Bible (typically what's convenient to their own inherent values, habits, and tendencies, or maybe that's the religion passed down by family or other social circle who imparted their values and habits) though of course they all say they're 100% Biblical and typically that other versions are not.
Thing is plenty of Christians also don't like the Christian Right. But when the Christian Right gets away with saying they represent Christianity and everyone else responds accordingly then all the more moderate and even liberal Christians get pushed to the Christian Right (I wonder if that's done intentionally or if they're just lucky it works out that way for them), when people like us should be trying to get them to our side.
When I was raised in the Bible Belt I met quite a few cynical of the churches (one churchless Christian ticked off so many by insisting to call all churches by their name with "incorporated" added after it  ), thinking that the sermon Jesus gave against the pharisees now applied to most modern churches. Interesting enough a few dealt with ideas of eternal damnation by incorporating beliefs of reincarnation and other new age aspects but still identified themselves as Christian (even after they adopted such ideas on their own), and one friend of mine thought gays were someone who "accidentally reincarnated in the wrong gender" with no hard feelings. 'Course while religion may be "democratic" (that is it's determined by people, councils, etc), spirituality is ultimately an individual experience.
Still, I also don't like it when people say the gay hating Christians are but a small minority because that flies in the face of the funding, votes, political pandering, audience, and best sellers they get. One was in such denial that she thought her state was incredibly gay friendly and shocked to find out the amendment barring even civil unions was the most in favor of it than in any other state in the US (apparently she mixed with a liberal band of Christians and never bothered to get to know what most Christians in her state were like). Westboro is an insignificant minority, but they weren't really hated until they crashed the funeral of soldiers and thanked God for 9/11, not because they bashed gays (though perhaps they were a "tad too honest" in doing so), and you can tell by how people and politicians act toward them, which is very different from the more socially acceptable and politically viable bigots.
But in the last 10 years I have seen that the power of the fundies I really dislike is fading so I have hope in another decade or so that they may become the small minority some people wish they were. And more and more Christians, sick of being associated with them, are standing up to them as well, which is also heartening (though it mildly annoys me a little that many churches become more gay friendly only after say a preacher's son or daughter comes out gay--in large part because of greater social acceptance--and not before, but at least it happened).
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Religion makes me uncomfortable. I don't have anything against religious people provided their beliefs are compatible with modern, civilized and progressive society but having grown up as a gay man I can't help feeling uncomfortable in churches, around religious artifacts etc.
I think people who bash religion as a whole do so for two reasons:
1. They're aware of the hideous role it has played in the past.
2. If a person is religious it can be implied that they share certain other values. If you meet a Christian person you know they're a lot more likely to be anti-abortion and against gay marriage, even if it's far from certain. This would be especially true in the U.S where the people obviously desire heterosexual, married men to run for the most prestigious and powerful positions and where religion and politics are inevitably related.
I see many problems with religion in general, even if it's practiced peacefully, but I'm not one to judge and I don't mind having religious friends.
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You don't have to be religious to do good around you and to expect good to come to you from others. All the hatred is getting a bit boring, and tiring in the end. It's not the way forward.
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Something I listened to recently reminded us of the origins of the word RELIGION, (Latin religio), which means being linked to something or obliged (ligere means to tie), ie religion is a set of principles and beliefs that tie you to a group of such minded people, who also adhere to the principles and beliefs of that order... The speaker argued that it was different from being spiritual, a dimension that religion often takes on, as well. But for him, being religious made better sense than begin spiritual. I don't remember whether his argument made sense to me, as I think it didn't really...
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Pix said, "What I don't like is how people allow the Christian Right to determine "what Christianity is." There are so many versions out there that it's a cafeteria, people take what they want from the Bible (typically what's convenient to their own inherent values, habits, and tendencies, or maybe that's the religion passed down by family or other social circle who imparted their values and habits) though of course they all say they're 100% Biblical and typically that other versions are not. "
I think it depends on where you live. The Right does not own Christianity ( in fact I often say Christ was the Supreme Being Of Lefty, lol).
Now here's an interesting thing I observe about that book. I think you ARE supposed to take from it what you want etc because it explains to everyone else what KIND of Christian you are. There's no escaping that kind of exposure, and some Christians, like the Fundie Right, I think are unaware how their choices in scripture exposes them.
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Swalter said, "It is only by delusional mental gymnastics that a person can arrive at a position of acceptance of homosexuality on the basis of the scriptures of those faiths."
Hmmm.. or....I can read that self contradicting book ( yes it does this in a few places) and understand it was written by people who would have cheerfully dispatched you to your maker for suggesting: people could fly, that the Earth was round, that God was not actually walking around just on the other side of the local cloud cover, that women could be barren, but a man also can shoot blanks, that it doesn't take truckloads of sperm to get a woman preggers. The list is long, but you get the idea.
So you might ask, well then Doug how can you believe? I say easy. Just look at cor 13 for an example . Incidentally, Bill my atheist fits cor 13 perfectly when it comes to his ethics. Sometimes I observe that he's more Christian in his ethics than , er, many Christians.
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The bible says horrible things about gays, rewrite the bible please.
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Is it really Gays vs. Religion?
