Two, in the case of heaven and hell, the bible does make it quite clear that when a person dies they go into the grave and stay their until the final trump (Judgement Day).
I'm no expert but I do know that Hell is mentioned several times in the Bible, even more so than Heaven. Jesus warned us several times about it and He even performed exorcisms.
Hell is, however, a big taboo, even among Christians, so they often use euphemisms: 'the grave', 'the second death', 'the abode of the dead'.
East Wrote:The general consensus is that gay people are going to hell...just for being gay...
How do you reconcile this?
Good question.
I don't reconcile. The Bible is quite clear: homosexuality is a sin and it will take you to Hell. I have no idea why but that's what it says.
I do believe, however, that we shouldn't try to understand or rationalise everything. The Lord moves in mysterious ways, His reasons aren't always clear but He is good and merciful and we should trust Him.
I don't reconcile. The Bible is quite clear: homosexuality is a sin and it will take you to Hell. I have no idea why but that's what it says.
I do believe, however, that we shouldn't try to understand or rationalise everything. The Lord moves in mysterious ways, His reasons aren't always clear but He is good and merciful and we should trust Him.
But shouldn't we trust God to be good and merciful in everyone'e case then?
If it is a sin and we are going to hell then God is an asshole for making us in the first place and creating some fucked up rule about going to hell for being true to yourself.
East Wrote:But shouldn't we trust God to be good and merciful in everyone'e case then?
If it is a sin and we are going to hell then God is an asshole for making us in the first place and creating some fucked up rule about going to hell for being true to yourself.
Honey, I don't know and I don't have all the answers.
Maybe the keyword here is sacrifice. We are all born sinners and we should renounce who we are to avoid Hell and reach Heaven.
I've always wondered, if its fear that makes people believe instead of faith and love. I guess I'm kind of 50/50 on this subject. I'm just gonna live my life the best way I can and try to do the right thing.
07-28-2014, 04:18 PM (Edited 07-28-2014, 04:26 PM by MikeW.)
MisterLove Wrote:Good question.
East Wrote:The general consensus is that gay people are going to hell...just for being gay...
How do you reconcile this?
I don't reconcile. The Bible is quite clear: homosexuality is a sin and it will take you to Hell. I have no idea why but that's what it says.
I do believe, however, that we shouldn't try to understand or rationalise everything. The Lord moves in mysterious ways, His reasons aren't always clear but He is good and merciful and we should trust Him.
First of all, taking this discussion completely at face value, has it occurred to anyone that "the general consensus" could be wrong?
If you look into it, there are only six places in the Bible where anything even remotely related to "homosexuality" is spoken of. Think about that. This huge book of "lessons" having to do with all sorts of things, accumulated over hundreds if not thousands of years, and only six places that homosexuality is even mentioned--and in rather obscure ways. IF homosexuality was such a BIG DEAL that it could get human beings damned to hell, wouldn't you expect it to be stated plainly and frequently (given how much guys, in particular, like to get their rocks off with anything including one another)?
But there are ONLY six references AND they are rather vague. If you look at the contexts in which these references are written, WHAT they are talking about is NOT love between two men. There's no mention of LOVE between two men anywhere in the Bible. How come? Didn't men love one another back then? And yet, we have Jesus telling ALL of us to love one another, love our neighbors as ourselves, and so forth.
If you want to learn more about these six places in the bible that mention homosexuality--from the point of view of a gay Christian who has studied them theologically, watch this video:
The point here is that the worst offense being spoken of is not love between men but "going against one's nature," "doing what is not natural for you." Other instances have to do with other things that are only 'sexual'. AND these are said to be "abominations". But, so were a LOT of things in the Old Testament. Wearing clothing made of two kinds of fiber, eating shell fish, many things like that were considered "abominations." But what happened? Why don't we fear "going to hell" for engaging in these "abominations" (as most contemporary people do)?
Well, the answer is that Christ set new laws, setting us free from the old law, the Old Testament--at least in part. So, from that perspective, what is really important in terms of the old, Biblical laws? Obviously all this is a matter of debate among Biblical scholars and theologians (and always has been and probably always will be).
SO MY POINT IS, don't ever think there is "a general consensus" that is set in stone. YES, the majority of people who *call themselves* Christians may believe any number of things that are theologically FALSE… that is, not backed up by anything actual. Why? Well, because the Bible is a text that has been translated and re-translated through thousands of years; because the attitudes and morals differ from culture to culture, century to century, because the TRUTH of the Bible is more about WHO one is, one's relationship to God, than about what one *does*.
Not saying there is no connection there, but that is where it gets tricky. If you understand the teachings of Paul, for example, he says in a couple places that for those who are truly Spiritual, who "have the mind of Christ," they are not bound by the letter of the law. They are bound by their love of God. See the difference? IOW, it isn't about what someone OUTSIDE YOURSELF tells you to do or not do; it's about your relationship with God, inwardly, what comes from within yourself at a higher level than your ego. THAT is a whole other way of thinking that most people can't even wrap their heads around--and Paul knew this. "You are but babes in Christ," he said, "and I have fed you with milk, not meat."
To understand the Bible, you have to be willing to understand the ancient languages of spirituality, which were not purely literal. For example, Jesus turned water into wine. Wow, sweet! But if you don't *know* that in the ancient teachings (not only Christian, btw) that "water" represented "knowledge" and that "wine" represented "knowledge of the spirit" (get it, the 'spirit' is the alcohol in the 'water'; it makes you 'drunk' with the spirit?)… if you don't KNOW that, then you just assume the words mean literal water and literal wine. But, no, that isn't what's being talked about at all; if, as Paul said, "You have eyes to see and ears to hear," then it all means something else, something much more important.
Just saying, don't think people know what they're talking about. They may or may not.
As for "heaven" and "hell" -- I prefer what the apocryphal Book of Thomas says. Note that the Book of Thomas was NOT included in the New Testament that we have. It *was* written and recorded however and lost to us for a very, very long time. Why wasn't it included? You'd have to go back two thousand years and ask the guys who put the New Testiment together. Why didn't you include it? I suspect it is because the whole Book of Thomas *undercuts* the ability of powerful people to use the Bible to *control* other people, to make them feel afraid, and guilty.
Here's the quote:
Quote:3) Jesus said: If those who lead you say to you: See, the kingdom [of God] is in heaven, then the birds of the heaven will go before you; if they say to you: It is in the sea, then the fish will go before you. But the kingdom is within you, and it is outside of you. When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will know that you are the sons of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you are in poverty, and you are poverty.
And here is the link to that so you can look at it for yourselves, see it in various languages and different translations…http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/th...omas3.html I think the whole book is online if you're curious.
So, what to make of Thomas's testament? HE says that Jesus didn't say what we *think* he said; Thomas says that the Christ's words were IF YOU DO NOT KNOW YOURSELF (that is, are not connected with your spiritual nature) the you are "poverty"-- you have "poverty of the spirit"-- just like Martin Luther King said in his famous speech…
Note the references to birds and fish… just like Thomas. You see, if YOU ARE POVERTY, then you create "poverty of the spirit" around you (which is why Thomas says it is both inside you and outside you)… and that IS "hell". A living hell that distracts us from our connection to a spiritual way of being.
MisterLove,
you are exactly the type person who gives religions bad names by running your mouth from a point off view of admitted ignorance. You yourself say you're no expert, don't have the answers and "don't know" --but then you walk dead ahead to give some of the dumbest answers possible.
I've got a challenge for you and I'm going to dog you about it until you follow up on it.
You asserted that all people are born sinners. Prove it!
Give me scientific proof that all humans are born sinners. The idea that all men are born sinners was invented by the unsaintly Saint Augustine in the early 400s CLICK HERE AND LEARN
OR... if you are either too lazy to prove it or just thought you could get away shooting bible shit out of your ass... Just admit you were just repeating stupid shit you've heard others repeat and thought you'd try to passing it off as gods holy word.
[SIZE="5"][COLOR="Red"]So what's it going to be???????????
Admit you made a stupid mistake or try proving how stupid your mistake was by trying to prove it wasn't stupid?
You said it here...and you might as well play this out before the very people you've been trying to pass off your idiocy on and let them see how ignorant you are.[/COLOR][/SIZE]
Oh... by the way.. I'm a rational christian, not an atheist. You have insulted my faith with your ignorance
This huge book of "lessons" having to do with all sorts of things, accumulated over hundreds if not thousands of years, and only six places that homosexuality is even mentioned--and in rather obscure ways.
[...]
IOW, it isn't about what someone OUTSIDE YOURSELF tells you to do or not do; it's about your relationship with God, inwardly, what comes from within yourself at a higher level than your ego. [...]
I had promised myself I wasn't going to post on this thread again, because I know this is a sensitive subject and I don't want to look like a Jesus freak or a zealot.
BUT
You guys raised some really interesting points here and I can't help myself (even though I'm no scholar or theologian).
I couldn't disagree more with MikeW.
When it comes to sin, the number of biblical references is irrelevant. One would have been enough. And the existing references are perfectly clear, especially Leviticus.
Moreover you seem to imply that some sins are less serious than others. According to our laws, some criminal offenses are indeed more serious than others (e.g. murder is worse than theft) but we're talking about divine justice here, not human justice. In God's eyes, all sin is equally detestable. This may seem strange at first but it gives all sinners an equal chance to repent and be saved.
Quotation #2 is pure moral relativism. Pope Francis and Pope Benedict have spoken vehemently against it and rightly so because that's what got us, humans, in trouble to begin with. The Garden of Eden is all about relativism: humans eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil and wanting to determine what's right or wrong. It's not for us to decide, we need outside rules to guide us and keep us in order.
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