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Fromgenesis Wrote:Exactly my point. The creator gives purpose.
If there is a higher power (let us call it Creator), then your purpose is determined. This Creator has however allowed you the freedom to choose to fulfill the purpose or not - to live the life you want. You will however have to stand by your decisions and accept responsibility for it.
You will find that your life is all but empty if you fulfill the Creator's purpose - because He has told us that He wants what is good for us. Now sometimes (quite often?) what the higher power wants may be quite contrary to what we want. That is our dilemma and why we prefer to do things "my way"
How do you know what the Creator's purpose is?
Fred
Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans.
![[-]](https://gayspeak.com/images/duende_v3_local/collapse.png)
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Fromgenesis Wrote:... Putting it more plainly then, if something happened with no purpose, it has no purpose. What I was referring to is that if there is a Creator, the creation cannot give meaning to itself other than what the creator intended... Neat, but too convenient to be helpful. It is too limited to confine one's definition of "purpose" to the whims of a sentient, if unseen and unknowable (maybe even constructed?), "Creator". It also ignores the drive to survive. Thank you for taking the trouble to explain further your terms of reference, but you have not met any of the arguments I put forward in my previous message.
Quote:Sorry, I do think in very simplistic terms.
Don't apologise. Sadly, bitter experience has taught me that there is nothing quite like religious faith for allowing the thinking parts of the brain to take a break. :frown:
Marx said it better:
"Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man—state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d'honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion. Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo."
Marx, K. Introduction to A Contribution to the Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right.
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marshlander Wrote:Don't apologise. Sadly, bitter experience has taught me that there is nothing quite like religious faith for allowing the thinking parts of the brain to take a break. :frown:
Rather dismissive of you, is it not?? *hurt face* With all due respect, I don't think that's a fair assertion. Genesis may be able to admit to thinking only in simple terms. I, however, cannot and will not. I'm not claiming to be any kind of genius, but i'm no simpleton.
fjp999 Wrote:I guess the Old Testament Creator gives us choice BUT if we choose NOT to follow then the OTC sends one to burn in hell. Then why the choice?
In the New Testament Creator we are accepted into Heaven as we are. God creates us and loves us no matter what. Basically Jesus taught us the OTC rules are no more. Praise Jesus.
Yes and no. The Old Testament rules are overruled by those of the New testament, but at the same time remember we're still to pay our dues to God. That includes having faith and/or repenting for our sins (not a phrase i'm keen on, sounds so archaic and punitive)... I'm sure that, when the time comes, you'll make the right decision and will indeed get into heaven hon. You're a good person, after all (and that's NOT meant to be in any way demeaning, and i'm truly sorry if it reads as such).
Personally i don't see how the ideas of Creationism and the Evolution are so mutually exclusive. All these random things happened, and here we are. WHY did they happen?? God.
Way i look at it, science goes back as far as it can. To the very beginning. But what was before before that?? God. God is the cause of the cause, if you will. God's will brought about the exact set of circumstances, out of all the trillions of trillions of chances, for things to turn out as they are.
Just gonna throw that in there...
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sox-and-the-city Wrote:Rather dismissive of you, is it not?? *hurt face* With all due respect, I don't think that's a fair assertion. Genesis may be able to admit to thinking only in simple terms. I, however, cannot and will not. I'm not claiming to be any kind of genius, but i'm no simpleton.
Sox, I'm glad you replied, since I was actually thinking of you as an example of someone who has, in contrast to what one generally finds, clearly thought at length about these issues ... which I believe I have acknowledged elsewhere.
You are the main reason I tried to word that sentence very carefully. I believe my choice of expression allows for exceptions, however few in number you may be 
I may not have made a "fair assertion" in your view, but the vast majority of believers among whom I have spent a substantial part of my life have surrendered willingly their freedom of thought, personal accountability and the sheer effort of thinking to the blanket of off-the-peg beliefs. It brings me no comfort to realise I have been complicit in these processes in the past and it is painful to see my blind choices limiting the potential richness of life for two more generations in my family.
As a "convert" to more evidence-based thinking I recognise my own zeal. It is a conflict!
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sox-and-the-city Wrote:Yes and no. The Old Testament rules are overruled by those of the New testament, but at the same time remember we're still to pay our dues to God. That includes having faith and/or repenting for our sins (not a phrase i'm keen on, sounds so archaic and punitive)... I'm sure that, when the time comes, you'll make the right decision and will indeed get into heaven hon. You're a good person, after all (and that's NOT meant to be in any way demeaning, and i'm truly sorry if it reads as such). [COLOR="Purple"]
Fuck, I am pretty Damn sure if anyone gets into Heaven it will be me, LOL. Not only all the wonderful things ya said about me but also intelligent, sexy, artistic, brilliant, funny, fashionable, gay, and extremely modest 
btw, why would I take anything ya said demeaning 
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sox-and-the-city Wrote:Personally i don't see how the ideas of Creationism and the Evolution are so mutually exclusive. All these random things happened, and here we are. WHY did they happen?? God.
Way i look at it, science goes back as far as it can. To the very beginning. But what was before before that?? God. God is the cause of the cause, if you will. God's will brought about the exact set of circumstances, out of all the trillions of trillions of chances, for things to turn out as they are.
Just gonna throw that in there...
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Well, again, I just dont get most of the above. Maybe I am blocked or something??? But does it really matter? If ya live a life where ya are as good as ya can be, or you live a life as horrible as can be, if ya can acknowledge your repentance just before ya die and  the gates open with those sexy bitch angels motioning ya forward 
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TRUMPETS!
LOL
After thinking about the meaning of life for a while, and discussing religion with fred on the chat it made me think of the whole buddhist take on nirvana.
I'm still pondering it but I would say its close to my thought process, maybe not the whole trying to reach that stage of enlightenment as I can't imaging that will allow you to pass to the next stage but the say karma idea, where you do good things or bad things, which in buddhism is used in the cycle of rebirth.
So I say we cannot even comprehend the meaning of life untill we have seen the full extent of what living in this world is like.
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Do you know Jesus was a Buddhist??
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fredv3b Wrote:How do you know what the Creator's purpose is? Being a "Bible Basher", I tend to take my cue from the Bible
"Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man."
"Fear" not to be seen as being scared, but reverence.
"Keeping commandments" may be answered by Jesus' comment on the greatest commandment:
"Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. "
It is when we follow this, that man experiences greatest happiness - a relationship with his Creator and with your "neighbour".
If you want to know who your neighbour is, you can refer to the parable of the good Samaritan
Luk 10:29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
Kind regards
Andre
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sweetlad86 Wrote:Do you know Jesus was a Buddhist?? No, tell me more.
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Fromgenesis Wrote:Being a "Bible Basher", I tend to take my cue from the Bible ... For many people, though, this is precisely the problem. Even assuming that the sixty-six books of the bible have survived their history of multiple translations and variable degrees of scholarly intervention they are still the writings of flesh and blood authors and storytellers. Not a single book is credited to a creator. The books, particularly the Old Testament, tell some very odd stories, including those where we are supposed to believe that appallingly criminal behaviour was justifiable if someone decided it was "God's will" (eg misogyny in the Garden of Eden, Abraham's child abuse, Joshua's genocidal invasion of Canaan).
Certainly the bible is a fascinating account of the stories, traditions and beliefs of people who lived in a particular part of the world more than two thousand years ago and there are undoubtedly interesting philosophical starting points for discussion, but as a last word in how to behave in a modern and caring society it leaves a lot to be desired. The New Testament may bring new ideas through the stories of the character known as Jesus, but isn't he the one who told us that it's okay for life to be rubbish now because it will be better when we die? We are also introduced to the extraordinary rantings of apparently unstable people like Saul/Paul of Tarsus and John the Revelator.
The bible may be old, but that does not excuse the way it is used by many. It is an account of the failings of men and women, dressed up as the word of a divine creator and used mainly to justify the actions of the power-hungry, the suppression of the dispossessed and, sadly, their complicity in their own abuse.
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