advice on friendship/love interest

[charles]

first time poster. I decided to post so I could get direct advice as I'm dealing with a hard situation. Would appreciate comments/feedback.

To start off, I would identify myself as mostly straight, but curious. I'm writing because I think I have feelings for a guy. The problem is he has a girlfriend. That seems to be a common theme.

So, a year and a half ago I started befriending a coworker, sharing advice and helping him with cover letters, resumes, job apps, etc since he wanted to change careers. The guy is likable, hard-working and attractive. He also had certain mannerisms that made me think he was gay. Initially, he didn't really talk much about his personal life because he didn't like people knowing about it. I thought it was because he was gay. Anyway, I'm curious, so there was a lot of subtle flirting and an instant connection between us. I don't know how to explain it, but when our eyes locked I felt like there was a mutual understanding that we were both attracted to each other. But there was nothing ever explicitly stated.

After several attempts of bugging him about his personal life, he finally reluctantly admitted to having a girlfriend. It turned out that he was in a long-distance relationship with someone an ocean away. Our dynamics changed after he revealed that, and for some reason he and she started getting into a lot of fights and he would complain to me about it. For a couple of months I became his support, but it got to a point that that's all he would talk about, and I told him that I didn't want to hear about her anymore. We still stayed close and got even closer. Still subtle flirting, but many signs that we cared about each other. Perhaps, the most important thing is that when I looked into his eyes, I could see that he liked me. Despite this, he stayed in the long distance relationship and visited her monthly.

Clearly all this has bothered me. On one of his most recent returns from visiting her, I noticed a change that bugged me. He no longer shared much with me. I confronted him about it, and he said that how could he share things with me when I don't want to talk about his girlfriend. After thinking about it, I decided that the best thing to do was to let go and just stay friends. I talked to him and told him that he was right and that there was no reason why I should have certain topics censored from our conversations.

I thought everything would be platonic, but our connection just grew deeper. I continued helping him with job apps, and it was obvious that we both enjoyed spending time with each other... however... he is extremely private and difficult to open up. Despite this, from our conversations, I've found out that he trusts me and that I'm probably his biggest support. (I've found this odd since he has a girlfriend.) We started using the term "we" frequently, like "we should buy a dog" "we should go on vacation" etc.

Anway, to shorten the story... recently, he visited his girlfriend for two weeks. That pissed me off. I think he knows that I like him, and every time he tells me very short notice with a "btw.. i'll be gone for 2 weeks." He told me he would keep in touch and call me. That didn't happen very regularly, and I took the time to reflect about everything, and I concluded that it was time for me to back away. I called him one day, and told him on the phone that I cared too much about him and that we needed to stop talking for a bit. If you can't tell.... all of this is very "covert"... no one has ever acknowledged anything for the other. He hung up on me. I didn't talk to him for a week until he got back. At that point, he called me and I returned his call only to find out that he was super upset with me, but he didn't want to tell me why. He said that he needed time and that I couldn't force him to do things my way. He said that he would call me later, but that turned into ignoring me and my calls for one week. I eventually confronted him and asked him what was going on. He said that he was upset at what i had said. I told him that there were signs that made me think that he didn't want me in his life and that I also needed to walk away with dignity. He said that he never said he didn't want me in his life. I decided to stick around. A day later, he tells me that his girlfriend is moving in with him for 4 months (this is the girlfriend that was originally long-distance).

So now I'm very confused. I don't understand what's going on. I decided to finally let go again. i think confronting that he has a girlfriend would help me accept the fact. So I subtly started asking about her and them. Questions like, what are you guys up to? Do you have any plans? It turns out that he doesn't like those questions. They get him really mad. He told me never to bring her up; that he doesn't want to talk about her with me and to keep to my own business. He also went as far as to tell me recently that I'm jealous. He gets upset when I assume he's with her, telling me "you assume I'm with her. I'm not. but you have to mind your own business. I don't date you." This is the first time one of us has been so direct about it.

Anyway, we aren't really talking at the moment. I told him that if he didn't want me in his life I would back away (words i had told him previously), but he hasn't replied.

The thing is I think he's having a hard time dealing with how he feels and he's the kind of person who would rather avoid things than confront them.

thoughts?

[MikeW]

To start off, I would identify myself as mostly straight, but curious. I'm writing because I think I have feelings for a guy. The problem is he has a girlfriend. That seems to be a common theme.

A common theme, indeed. It sounds like what you have is a "bro-mance" and, indeed, they can be confusing, *especially* if you (both of you) identify as "mostly straight". It's complicated because our culture makes it complicated. We like to divide things and ourselves up into neat categories with little blurring or overlap: Gay/Straight/Bi .

The problem with that is, well, life just isn't that clear cut. For one thing there is *sexual* attraction and there is *emotional* attraction. Sexuality is *one way* we express our *emotional* responses to and with another human being.

So, yeah, I believe it is possible for two "straight" dudes to not only fall in love but actually have a sexual relationship as well. Now, there are many gay men who disagree with me on this, and there is the question of whether they are, infact, bisexual. But to me these terms are "relative." Rather than try and define them in the abstract, the way I look at it is, I just accept a person's own self-identity at face value. If you're in love what another guy and you call yourself straight, who the hell am I to say you're wrong about that? I believe men CAN do that. Our society doesn't know how to "pigeon hole" such relationships and so it just drives everyone a bit batty.

See, if you two were totally fine with how you feel with/for one another, enjoyed your time together, communicated clearly and openly with one another, expressed your emotions however felt appropriate to both of you -- well, so where's the problem there? But, of course, it isn't like that. Not only is there a girl friend involved who, no doubt, would have her own feelings about you two if she knew, there is the broader social context of what your relationship "means" about either or both of you. So... rather than being simple and straight forward it gets all flubbed up.

Ok, so now what? My suggestion is you really try and get in touch with yourself, who you are and what you really want. How is it that so much of your energy is getting put into this "relationship" (such as it is). You've not told us anything much about yourself, really. Are you going out, dating, looking, what? Where's your head at about your own sexuality?

From my admittedly limited POV here, you need to get clear with what is going on inside yourself and what you want. Then the next step, IMO, would be to get clear with HIM about what you want. Just put it out there point blank: "I'm in love with you, dude, and I'd love for us to have more of an intimate relationship than we do already. How do you feel about that?" (Or whatever YOUR TRUTH is.) Once its out there just like that, honest, open, matter of fact... the ball is in his court and he's going to respond, reply, react -- w/e -- however he does. I assume he's as "confused" (unclear inside himself) as you are. Putting the ball in his court forces the issue. He has to now come to some kind of clarity for himself.

Frankly, given what you've said about him, I'm very doubtful he's going to come back at you with, "Wow, yeah, that sounds great, lets see how we can make that happen..." It isn't impossible but highly unlikely, IMO. More likely he's going to totally flip out and put up a huge wall of distance between you because he just isn't ready or doesn't know how to deal with whatever conflicting feelings he's having. Besides he has a GF and for all we know he's truly into her. Maybe not, but we're not clear about that. In any case, that is HIS focus, not you, right? And we don't really see that changing, right?

So, given this isn't going to work out the way you might like to explore, what does this mean? Well, it gets you out of this "does he or don't he" / "will we or won't we" quandary. That quandary can eat up a HUGE amount of emotional energy and keep you stuck for a long time. In fact, my personal belief is that part of the function of "knots" like this (that's what I call them) is precisely to SPARE us from having to move forward in our lives toward TRUE (mutual) intimacy. So long as I stay hung on the horns of a dilemma, then I don't need to confront reality at all. To me the dilemma IS the reality.

Well, but, seriously, does it have to be? Is your life dependent on this situation? No, it isn't. You've chosen to get into it and you've been hovering around in this sort of emotional no-man's land of uncertainty ever since. Well, is that how you want to live your life? Seriously? You don't want to find someone who is as into you as you are into them, someone with whom you can freely and openly express and experience your passion for love, life and, yes, sex? Seriously?

This is my $2.10. Just get clear with yourself about what you want with him and tell him your truth flat out and let the cookie crumble where it may. Free yourself from this dilemma. Either take it to the next level or move on. And, btw, the latter doesn't necessarily mean you can't still be friends or buddies... what it means is you free up your attention and open yourself to new possibilities.

[charles]

Thanks Mike.

so because you asked.

I identify as straight. I've fooled around with one guy 5 years ago and only once. However, I'm pretty open-minded and believe that love can transcend gender.

In terms of whether I'm looking, dating, etc. Honestly, when I first started talking to this guy, I was looking for girls to date. That was one of the things that we would talk about as I discussed Hinge/tinder/dating app dates.... this was in the very beginning when everything seemed platonic. However, with time as our conversations grew deeper, I began to really fall for him, and the conversations about girls stopped.

One thing that I should point out is that I've been the one who has done "most of the work." I text him, I reach out to him, I invite him to hang out, I help him. That's one of the things that bugs me. I know that that could be a sign of lack of interest from his part. Like clearly the guy hardly ever has gone out of his way to initiate anything. It has upset me several times, and I've actually confronted him about it. He's told me time and time again, that that's just who he has....and that i should know that he does care about me. I've gone as far as to say that I cannot assume that, and that he needs to show it somehow, because it just seems like he doesn't want me in his life.... he denies that.

Honestly, the only "proof" I have that he cares about me are 1) when I look into his eyes and 2) every time that we fight (seems to happen very frequently) and we don't talk for days/weeks. During our fights, it's obvious that we are both hurting but i'm the one who always has to apologize... and when I do, i see the nerves and tears well up behind his eyes.

As I said in the previous post, he is a guy who would rather not feel than confront something uncomfortable. And I think he is trying to play it safe by having his gf and me around. I'm not going to say he's not into his gf. I've never seen them interact (ive never met her), but he visits her every month....so i'm sure there must be at least something there. however, I'm willing to say that he has a stronger/deeper connection with me. I talk to him about everything in my life... and while he has trouble sharing anything about his life... he's told me more things than he's told anyone.

In terms of trying to figure out what i want. That is something that I have to think about more. I don't really know what I want. I wasn't really looking for this....but I guess I just want the chance to explore how we both feel.

I want to tell him the truth, but I'm scared. I'm positive that we both feel the same way, but it would destroy me if he denied his feelings.

[YueUsagi]

I agree with Mike that you should find who you are first and love yourselves. When everything is clear to you, then go out and have fun with your life. Love will come to you.

About the guy you like, he just see you as a friend ( may be best friend). If a guy likes you, he will never ever bring up "his love" to you and asks for advice. He does and talks about his girlfriend with you. That means he's not interested in you. Don't make an excuse for him and don't do anything fool around. You will lose the friendship, if you ask him about his feeling for you.

[Pyromancer]

If you two had a fight, and you didn't make the first move to reconcile...would he? My BF also has a hard time sharing personal stuff and opening up...so we were friends for a long time first. However, when it came to a point where he realized that I was getting interested in someone else and he was going to lose his chance...he had NO trouble at all telling me what he felt, and he hasn't shut up yet lol -

In contrast...when I was 16 I was madly in love with a girl who treated me like shit...but I read so much into it...and no matter that the fights were started by her, I was always the one to run back and apologize...until one day I didn't. Because I KNEW that if I held off long enough, she'd realize what I meant to her. Well...that was almost 9 years ago, and she hasn't called yet lol -

You need to try to be realistic. Figure out yourself before you involve anyone else...

[charles]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

You are right and I need to try to figure myself out first. I was caught off guard by my feelings for him because he doesn't really fit what I was looking for (I'm not just talking gender).

YueUsagi, the thing that's confusing is that he no longer talks about her. That's the point. I want to talk about her because I want to confront reality and get over him. But he told me that he doesn't want to talk about her anymore. Tables kind of turned because in the beginning I was the one who didn't want to... but now he explicitly told me that he doesn't. Whenever I bring her up, he changes topics of conversation. And if I persist, he gets really mad. It's almost like he just wants to live the moment with me and not bring her into the picture. I've told him that I want to meet her (so I can just accept the situation and move on), and he has said that he no longer wants me to meet her. The whole situation is really weird, because he will go out of his way to reassure me that he is not with her.... like he'll say things like "don't worry, I'm not with her" or "you are assuming I am with her...for your peace of mind, I'm not." I feel like saying those things only means that he reciprocates my feelings, otherwise why would he say that?

another thing that complicates things...is that i've been pretty successful career-wise. When we used to talk about girls in the very beginning, I made a point to voice certain traits that I was looking for in women with respect to education and career. He's always thought of me as a snob, and I think he has insecurities about not being good enough for me.

Pyromancer...I've always been the one to apologize. He has a difficult personality and is very stubborn, so I doubt he would ever do that. The one time that I told him that I needed to not talk to him for a bit was the closest thing I got in terms of him realizing he could lose me. He got super upset about it but in retaliation ignored me after I reached out. When we finally spoke, he told me that he never said he didnt want me in his life. He said I needed to give him time. I flat out asked him that if he wanted me in his life, he needed to tell me. (of course this is all covert language). he said he did. and as i said before, the next day he announced that his girlfriend was moving in with him.

i suspect that when he got upset at me and wasn't talking to me he asked his gf to move in... but it was a done deal and he had to let me know the next day. I suspect that he kind of regrets it and that he just wants our relationship to go on without talking about her.... but that seems kind of impossible.

thoughts?

[YueUsagi]

I think the best way is just answer yourselves a simple question. Does he make you happy or not? I think you already have that answer.

Remember, there are a thousand fish in the ocean. May be a happy ending is moving on. Everyone deserves a right person. If he's interested in you, he won't let the chance goes away.

[trywait]

you're overcomplicating a simple friendship. take it at face value.

so, if you don't want "mixed" signals, talk about it to him. if you cannot handle a "bromance" only, then you may need to re-evaluate this friendship. he mentioned he had a gf. you are single. yet, you're pining for the guy to like you.

[MikeW]

...As I said in the previous post, he is a guy who would rather not feel than confront something uncomfortable. And I think he is trying to play it safe by having his gf and me around. I'm not going to say he's not into his gf. I've never seen them interact (ive never met her), but he visits her every month....so i'm sure there must be at least something there. however, I'm willing to say that he has a stronger/deeper connection with me. I talk to him about everything in my life... and while he has trouble sharing anything about his life... he's told me more things than he's told anyone.

In terms of trying to figure out what i want. That is something that I have to think about more. I don't really know what I want. I wasn't really looking for this....but I guess I just want the chance to explore how we both feel.

I want to tell him the truth, but I'm scared. I'm positive that we both feel the same way, but it would destroy me if he denied his feelings.

No, it wouldn't.

I mean, yeah, for sure, it would be a huge disappointment and would bust your romantic bubble. It would be frustrating as fuck and you'd feel hurt. BUT, guy, this is why you need to get this all clear in your own head. What do you want from him? If you are fine with an on-going platonic relationship, I don't see a problem here. However, if what you're wanting is something more than that, something more intimate, possibly a romantic and sexual relationship -- well, indeed, you can't do that with a guy who doesn't feel the same way, or doesn't *acknowledge* that he has those same feelings. Even trying to make that happen is a set up for disaster.




Listen to these sisters, DANGER & HEARTBREAK DEAD AHEAD!

When you give more than you get
You're in danger
You may find that you're in love
With a stranger
...
Well, it only takes one second, girl, to learn
That playing with fire will get you burned
So girl, don't you be foolish

Why go there? Help me understand that.

I'm relating to your situation as a man who has fallen in love/lust with men WHO WERE NOT AVAILABLE TO ME more than once.

If your guy isn't willing to go *there* (exploring increased intimacy) with you then, no, knowing this will not destroy you. Yes, it will hurt and feel frustrating as hell, but survive, you will. Moreover, you'll be FAR, FAR BETTER OFF knowing this, rather than craving something he isn't willing to share with you. You'll finally be FREE to move on with your own life and finding someone who WILL want to have that level of intimacy with you.

[MikeW]

i suspect that when he got upset at me and wasn't talking to me he asked his gf to move in... but it was a done deal and he had to let me know the next day. I suspect that he kind of regrets it and that he just wants our relationship to go on without talking about her.... but that seems kind of impossible.

thoughts?

I don't know, man, do you want a Down Low relationship with him?

I kind of agree with [MENTION=14517]trywait[/MENTION], this is overcomplicated. I just can't deal with situations where important relationship stuff is not talked about openly but rather through innuendo or whatever. I mean, seriously? That is just so lame, not to mention a set-up for deniability. "Oh, I never meant that..." Like fucking hell you didn't.

No, you need to get this cleared up. You're driving yourself nuts. Either there is something here or there isn't and either he's on board with you or he isn't. Nuff said.