Feel Bad

[East]

see, this is something i DO NOT do. i never say things i don't mean. not to flirt, not to fill in blanks in the conversation, not for being polite, or for the sake of social convention. not for anything. i absolutely abhor this type of behavior. i mean every word that i say. if i get asked a question i don't want to answer, then i don't answer. i leave it at that. if i say i want to do something with you, then it's not some stupid social game i'm playing along or just empty BS coming out, i say it because i absolutely mean it. and i do not understand people who say things they do not mean. what the fuck is the point?

if someone pulled that game with me, telling me all sorts of things he wanted to do, just for flirting and not meaning it....well, that doesn't go down well with me. it's a sign that i can't trust what the guy is saying, which means i can't trust him. period. he automatically loses all credibility in my eyes.

I get it....and if you wanted to be a bartender in a gay bar...I would strongly suggest another choice. I had the "another choice" conversation many times with people who didn't want to be touched or grabbed....and it comes with the territory. In a PC world...we all know it isn't nice to grab people or put your hand down their shorts :eek: ..but in a bar...it is a different world and there are different rules...if you want to be successful....

You can tell everyone not to touch you....or you can refuse to play the flirt game...but you will end up with no business and probably have to close the doors...and this is why that job isn't for everyone. Personally... I don't have what it takes for corporate job success

Just to be clear...I don't flirt at all with people otherwise...not for any particular reason one way of the other...I just don't. I considered flirting a part of the job...and it definitely was. I rolled with the punches which is pretty much the only way to survive in an often insane environment. I left it at the door though...I was very conscious of that. If I hadn't...I wouldn't have lasted longer than a year or two. You have to create a persona to deal with the bullshit and a persona is easy to leave at the door....

In my personal dealings with guys...on my time..I was extremely direct and no flirting at all.... and that probably turned off waaaaaayyyyyy more guys than the flirting thing...but it worked for me....

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[MENTION=20991]JimmyEcho[/MENTION] .....I am not sure you need therapy but if you think you do...maybe it would be a good idea. When you say adrenaline rush....there are some people who get off on doing what you do....hence the adrenaline rush....and the environment you are in is definitely the place to do it...

You remind me of a guy I knew who used to flirt with all the bartenders. He was a really deep voiced masculine guy who was blond and had the body a lot of people loved and he did a lot of porn when he was younger..... he also had an unusually large penis...

He also had his own plane he would fly and part of his flirt thing was telling us all where he was gonna take us and what he was gonna do with us....and he got off on the whole interaction...and he often brought up to me what he had said or done with the "other guy" that got him in trouble and my attitude was pretty much the same as I said here earlier...

...and I knew he actually did like all of us..and he felt bad just like you do...and he wanted some kind of absolution or understanding of his behavior. He never said it but I also knew nothing was ever gonna happen ..but I didn't consider what he was doing lying or hurting anyone...except maybe himself on some level....

...so I got him a copy of The Gods Must Be Crazy on VHS and told him that he must watch it and report back to me...which he did....and then we had our "moment"...and when he would fuck up...I looked in his eyes and he would sheepishly say to me....

...yeah yeah..I know...The Gods Must Be Crazy....

[JimmyEcho]

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[MENTION=20991]JimmyEcho[/MENTION]

You remind me of a guy I knew who used to flirt with all the bartenders. He was a really deep voiced masculine guy who was blond and had the body a lot of people loved and he did a lot of porn when he was younger..... he also had an unusually large penis...


...and I knew he actually did like all of us..and he felt bad just like you do...and he wanted some kind of absolution or understanding of his behavior. He never said it but I also knew nothing was ever gonna happen ..but I didn't consider what he was doing lying or hurting anyone...except maybe himself on some level....

...so I got him a copy of The Gods Must Be Crazy on VHS and told him that he must watch it and report back to me...which he did....and then we had our "moment"...and when he would fuck up...I looked in his eyes and he would sheepishly say to me....

...yeah yeah..I know...The Gods Must Be Crazy....

I Think we might have met at one time.
It really does hurt me. Giving up this seen is also really going to hurt.
Gods Must Be Crazy-----Is that the movie with the Soda Bottle???

[meridannight]

I get it....and if you wanted to be a bartender in a gay bar...I would strongly suggest another choice. I had the "another choice" conversation many times with people who didn't want to be touched or grabbed....and it comes with the territory. In a PC world...we all know it isn't nice to grab people or put your hand down their shorts ..but in a bar...it is a different world and there are different rules...if you want to be successful....

You can tell everyone not to touch you....or you can refuse to play the flirt game...but you will end up with no business and probably have to close the doors...and this is why that job isn't for everyone. Personally... I don't have what it takes for corporate job success

i am definitely not the type suited for customer service. so, i have no desire to ever be a barman or anybody else directly dealing with the customers. i guess i don't understand the professional+client aspect of it, the way you describe it. i didn't know there was anything like that involved there.

and i wasn't speaking about physical touching either. i meant when you said you would say things, about doing one thing or another, and not meaning what you said. to me, that is fake. even for a job where you deal with so many people -- why would you say things you don't mean? i really don't understand any of it.

and i don't deal with people who are like that. to me, it's probably one of the worst offenses a person can pull on me.

In my personal dealings with guys...on my time..I was extremely direct and no flirting at all.... and that probably turned off waaaaaayyyyyy more guys than the flirting thing...but it worked for me....

this is what i'm like. i know what i want and what i don't want. and i don't play games about it. i'm up front and direct in my dealings with people.

i've noticed that there aren't a lot of guys like me in that regard though. most don't do it like i do it. this is what comes most naturally to me though. i know what i'm doing when i'm doing it, and i wouldn't know it any other way. any other way would be fake for me.

[East]

i am definitely not the type suited for customer service. so, i have no desire to ever be a barman or anybody else directly dealing with the customers. i guess i don't understand the professional+client aspect of it, the way you describe it. i didn't know there was anything like that involved there.

and i wasn't speaking about physical touching either. i meant when you said you would say things, about doing one thing or another, and not meaning what you said. to me, that is fake. even for a job where you deal with so many people -- why would you say things you don't mean? i really don't understand any of it.

and i don't deal with people who are like that. to me, it's probably one of the worst offenses a person can pull on me.

this is what i'm like. i know what i want and what i don't want. and i don't play games about it. i'm up front and direct in my dealings with people.

i've noticed that there aren't a lot of guys like me in that regard though. most don't do it like i do it. this is what comes most naturally to me though. i know what i'm doing when i'm doing it, and i wouldn't know it any other way. any other way would be fake for me.

It isn't so much saying things you don't mean....for instance...I didn't flirt with anyone I didn't like as a person...nor did I flirt with anyone who I knew that had a crush on me...or anyone I was having sex with.....

A nightclub and the dynamics day to day can be a giant psychological mind fuck so you better have a way to cope with it. I was perfect because I had nothing but chaos as a kid and so I can handle the situation well....

Developing a persona isn't about saying things you don't mean...or being phony...

For instance...I am shit for helping people come out. My advice is probably good for only 2% of the people who are trying to come out...and my persona can't even handle it because in order to have a good persona...there has to be a real part of you present. Everyone already knew I sucked at that and so many of the others gave perfect advice. Same with unrequited loved...EEK! I couldn't handle that either....maybe one time if you really needed someone to listen but then you gotta pick up your chin and own your shit or I go crazy.....nothing in my persona can handle that either because I believe in seizing the moment to my core and I have shit advice for people who won't. I used my persona for humor and had an hourglass and a noose to hang myself in order to make light of it...but true to who I really am...I was serious as fuck..NOT MY THING!

Both of those things I mentioned are staples for a gay bartender so I had to find my strengths as I was handicapped by my lack of interest in coming out stories and unrequited love. It isn't much different than a hooker...five minutes for the sex part and 55 minutes of hearing them tell you how much their wife doesn't understand them....

What I AM good at is protecting people's vulnerabilities who are introverted...shy....offbeat...eccentric..."freaks and geeks"...and trying to make them feel comfortable and "included"...drawing them out of their cocoon....I am very good at doing this....and using the tool of flirting can help more than anyone can measure to someone who is struggling with self esteem issues and gaining confidence....or trying to connect to someone who feels awkward about social interaction....and doing that is very much who I actually am..

Back then...there was often a line down the block to get in so it was packed...and you often only had a second of eye contact/touch/body language to accomplish this...and flirting is a tool...a bridge... that is very useful...

If I know someone needs to get lifted up...and I know they are a decent person (I normally avoid evil people)...I will do pretty much whatever I can to give them the lift ...on their terms if at all possible...not mine....and I prefer them not to know what I am doing. I did it because I wanted to and it is natural for me to want to help people step into their own life. Flirting is just one of the tools I used and it is a game I would play willingly over and over again if I was in the same situation..and the situation called for it....

Also...I like to look at the whole picture and rarely...maybe even never... focus on literal interpretations of stuff like flirting.....

Sometimes it is just a simple case of someone needing attention but more often it is a case of someone needing or wanting the connection....or even just wanting to play. I understand not everyone is cut out for it. People lie to each other and themselves all the time....and that is where I would have a problem on a personal level...

If a bartender or anyone else flirted with me...I wouldn't even give it much thought at all. When a man says he wants to have my baby....I certainly understand he can't actually have my baby when I tell him I would keep him barefoot and pregnant...and he understands that he would never be barefoot and pregnant....or one would hope so :eek: ...

[East]

I Think we might have met at one time.
It really does hurt me. Giving up this seen is also really going to hurt.
Gods Must Be Crazy-----Is that the movie with the Soda Bottle???

Yup..the coke bottle...

I really am sorry that you are being so hard on yourself. I forgot to ask...were you pretending to be sincere and make promises?..or was it also playful and flirty? I am thinking maybe we might have a different definition of flirting and are maybe talking about two different things?

The way I interpreted it was that you were kinda teasing him....and maybe liked that he was attracted to you?...and yeah...I see that as flirting...but it doesn't matter in the end what I think because it is what you think that counts....

If you really feel bad...you can always go back and say

"Goddamn....sometimes I am such an ass. Part of me would like to be "that guy" but another part of me knows I am not and I am sorry if I led you on. I feel like crap"....

Even if I interpreted it wrong and it is something different...keep it real if you need to relieve yourself from feeling bad. Thing is Jimmy...every fucking person walking around today is flawed...every one of us. If you feel like this is a flaw you have..owning it will set you free. Make amends to the people you think you offended or hurt. They might surprise you. If they lecture you or throw the book at you...let them...and then walk away knowing you at least tried to make it right....that's all you can do sometimes....eh?

[meridannight]

[MENTION=18508]East[/MENTION]....i think i am more confused now than i was before. lols. because i don't understand much of anything you said....

i look at the whole picture too, by the way. and it's weird because i am actually involved with night clubs (straight clubs though). have been for years. but i have nothing to do with the clientele (luckily). and i still don't understand what you mean by ''it's a mind fuck''. i must be completely oblivious to something here....

[JimmyEcho]

Yup..the coke bottle...

I really am sorry that you are being so hard on yourself. I forgot to ask...were you pretending to be sincere and make promises?..or was it also playful and flirty? I am thinking maybe we might have a different definition of flirting and are maybe talking about two different things?

The way I interpreted it was that you were kinda teasing him....and maybe liked that he was attracted to you?...and yeah...I see that as flirting...but it doesn't matter in the end what I think because it is what you think that counts....

If you really feel bad...you can always go back and say

"Goddamn....sometimes I am such an ass. Part of me would like to be "that guy" but another part of me knows I am not and I am sorry if I led you on. I feel like crap"....

Even if I interpreted it wrong and it is something different...keep it real if you need to relieve yourself from feeling bad. Thing is Jimmy...every fucking person walking around today is flawed...every one of us. If you feel like this is a flaw you have..owning it will set you free. Make amends to the people you think you offended or hurt. They might surprise you. If they lecture you or throw the book at you...let them...and then walk away knowing you at least tried to make it right....that's all you can do sometimes....eh?

East
EVERYTHING I SAID IS TRUE!!!
I'm just Tired and being completely Honest---(That's all I got at this point if I want to understand why I do what I do)
Yes, It was playful flirting in the beginning and when I got to know him and got closer I started to actually develope Feeling for him---(I know it sounds crazy, but it's true.)

TEASING HIM, NO!!!! NOT EVEN IN THE BEGINNING!!!!!----HOWEVER
MAKING MYSELF FEEL GOOD ABOUT AN ATTRACTIVE GUY FALLING FOR ME, YES!!!!!
Whats that all about???? why do I do that and take it to the EXTREME!!!!

Heres the Fucked up thing, You talked about Jealously when that straight Guy had when you talked to another person---(that is just one of the reasons I said you Nailed it)

You Phrased it perfectly about what to say

"QUOTE FROM EAST"
"Goddamn....sometimes I am such an ass. Part of me would like to be "that guy" but another part of me knows I am not and I am sorry if I led you on. I feel like crap"....

WOW!!!! I CAN TELL YOU HAVE BEEN THROUGH THIS SAME THING!!!!!!

Now Here's What's REALLY Fucked up------I Really Really Like Him, A LOT!!!!!!!!

[Rareboy]

To the OP.

Never underestimate the power of a good blow-job to make you re-evaluate your sexuality.

[TwisttheLeaf]

Ok..... just saying? Your age says 46 but you're acting like a 16 year old. Seriously.

You've made it clear in your posts this isn't anywhere close to the first time you've done this. You -say- that you feel bad about it, have regret about it, etc.

And then you do it again.

You also say in your profile that you're bisexual. And yet seem to be trying to insist you're not into guys (other than fucking with their heads, anyway).

You say that you're worried about retaliation, etc. You seem to acknowledge you're putting yourself at risk. But then you go and do it again.

Where is the authenticity? I see nothing -genuine- going on here. No honesty to yourself, or to others. Whether this is a choice, or something you need to look into therapy to resolve.... do you really want to live your life this way?

[East]

East
EVERYTHING I SAID IS TRUE!!!
I'm just Tired and being completely Honest---(That's all I got at this point if I want to understand why I do what I do)
Yes, It was playful flirting in the beginning and when I got to know him and got closer I started to actually develope Feeling for him---(I know it sounds crazy, but it's true.)

TEASING HIM, NO!!!! NOT EVEN IN THE BEGINNING!!!!!----HOWEVER
MAKING MYSELF FEEL GOOD ABOUT AN ATTRACTIVE GUY FALLING FOR ME, YES!!!!!
Whats that all about???? why do I do that and take it to the EXTREME!!!!

Heres the Fucked up thing, You talked about Jealously when that straight Guy had when you talked to another person---(that is just one of the reasons I said you Nailed it)

You Phrased it perfectly about what to say

"QUOTE FROM EAST"
"Goddamn....sometimes I am such an ass. Part of me would like to be "that guy" but another part of me knows I am not and I am sorry if I led you on. I feel like crap"....

WOW!!!! I CAN TELL YOU HAVE BEEN THROUGH THIS SAME THING!!!!!!

Now Here's What's REALLY Fucked up------I Really Really Like Him, A LOT!!!!!!!!

Hmmmm...

First things come to mind...

...maybe you are using this behavior in the same way some people use drugs or alcohol...to fill a void...but it never really gets filled....

...or maybe you desire intimacy with a male?...but without the love or sex part?...and just don't know how to go about it. Most men don't actually....

Did a male authority figure ever abandon you?...or walk out of your life?...or ignore you? ...maybe not love you? Any or all of this would easily explain why you might behave that way...

I am just putting that on the table for you as things to maybe consider. It could be something else entirely... I am not a professional...but it may give you something to think about or maybe one opened door will lead to another door....