Ayaan Hirisi Ali abd Sharia Law

[East]

I think this is a very fascinating woman...and if you hate Bill Maher...just go to 5:10 on the video to listen to her..what she has to say is very important...

And it addresses something that has mystified me...WHY DO SO MANY LIBERALS DEFEND ISLAM????????????????????? These same liberals will have a fit if there is any blur in the line when it comes to separation of church and state...or if Christianity attacks them...and I agree with them...but for some reason...Islam is off-limits.

I have really tried to see their POV...and I just have to agree to disagree. With Christians or any other people who do not have a "Plan" for the rest of us.....I have no problem respecting them and their belief...including Islam...but when they cross the line and use religion to bash gay people or anyone else...FUCK THEM!




Your thoughts?

PS...It is supposed to say AND...not ABD...in the title...my apologies

[Rareboy]

It was a good show and she makes a strong case.

[Pyromancer]

...WHY DO SO MANY LIBERALS DEFEND ISLAM?????????????????????

IDK, but maybe because the average Muslims in America...the architects and doctors and lawyers...the people we meet socially, or through work...tend to live the way the "buffet-table-Catholics" I grew up among did...pick and choose beliefs. The ones who profess to be "good Catholics" but conveniently ignore the church law when it suits them...on issues like premarital sex, birth control, abortion, divorce...

The "buffet-table-Muslims" seem to be just like us, so it lulls us and we forget the horrors being perpetrated in the name of religion. We forget the court battles and the bills being introduced in many states to forbid the application of Sharia Law...and the way those court cases and bills are sidetracked by huge infusions of cash from radical sources...

Thanks for posting this...people need to be made aware that complacency is the real enemy here.

[MikeW]

...WHY DO SO MANY LIBERALS DEFEND ISLAM?????????????????????

I've been accused of this by (primarily) a) right wingers and b) Zionist Jews, so I want to take a shot at answering this question.

From my vantage point, I tend to want to defend the rights of ANY minority (regardless of the fact that there are many within any minority with whom I may disagree or strongly oppose). I abhor fundamentalist Christians, for example, but I support their right to HAVE their faith and to EXPRESS it in free speech. What I've seen repeatedly coming from both a and b is an attempt to get me to PERCEIVE the Muslim faith from a PREJUDICED point of view. This is what I refuse to do and this refusal is experienced by a and b as "defending Islam".

It isn't. It's defending the rights of all people to believe whatever the hell they want to believe and to express that belief publicly. True, religious and ideological "fundamentalism," indeed fascism in general, is a potential THREAT to liberty. I don't deny that. What I do deny is that one can protect liberty by denying it to others.

[Virge]

I read a couple books by Ayaan Hirisi Ali in 2007 when I was in Afghanistan/2007. Her books helped me understand the people there, but it didn't make me like them, their culture or their religion. In fact her books made me despise them for the way they treat women and children.

East, you know I've spoken up in here about this subject and each time I have there has been a few liberals who've resorted to meaningless rhetoric and "Virge is a Muslim hater" crap. Not true. it used to make my brain melt to read liberals defending Islam but I think I've figured it out. I don't see any reason for them to do it besides of instinct and habit just to take positions opposite of conservatives who took their stand on it first. Islam is the most violent, backwards and inhumane religion ever to exist.

Ayaan Hirisi Ali is "okay" but she's not my favorite escapee from Islam. That's Wafa Sultan. She comes in two sizes. For the English speaking world she's a calm polite speaker. When she's on Arabic television debating politicians or imams she's an unrelenting bitch who kicks them in their nuts every time she gets a chance.

Here's the sweet Wafa. Just watch enough to get her personality.



Now watch this and see Wafa the streetbrawler.

[East]

Thanks everyone.....I will address a few things in your posts but I want to say first that I thought about his all damn day yesterday after I wrote this and for me...I traced it back to the 1970s. I considered myself a feminist and saw a lot of parallels with our own struggle...and I had a problem with the way women were treated in those countries...in the name of religion.

Also.. [MENTION=21084]Virge[/MENTION] has a point about disagreeing with conservatives...but it isn't that simple. I can agree with conservatives ...and sometimes I do...but NEVER when I sense any kind of racist or xenophobic bullshit ...and I know that the ones who are think they hide it...but they don't. It isn't long before they do their whole "those brown people" rants...the them and us rants...on soooooooooooooooooooooooo many other topics....that I draw a natural and correct conclusion and so I grit my teeth and go back to my camp and try to find a way to defend an organized religion I dislike intensely...as I intensely dislike all organized religion.

What gets me with my fellow liberals...I am allowed to rag on Fundamentalist Christians and Christians who want to discriminate against us "in the name of God"...with NO PROBLEM...but when I rag on Muslims who actually DO KILL US in the name of God...I get shit for it. I attempt to take a stand..and then some stupid racist yahoo starts in with their bullshit and I have to defend them. It is my natural inclination....

I hate what they believe ONLY WHEN THEIR BELIEF INCLUDES DISCRIMINATION AGAINST OTHER PEOPLE IN THE NAME OF WHATEVER THEY CALL GOD...I hate what they practice if it involves harm or force to anyone else....but I don't hate the people as a whole because they are all individuals...just like they are all individuals in this society.

...and as [MENTION=20947]MikeW[/MENTION] has said...I do want to defend free speech...and it is how I justify siding with the liberals...but then I remember that they want to actually take away my own free speech and freedom of expression in the name of their sky daddy...and I am deeply conflicted....

It would be so much easier for me if they were powerless...like the Fred Phelps Klan from Kansas...but they aren't powerless....and the percentage of people who believe that sharia law should be the law of the land for everyone in these countries is staggering...and sharia law... it is everything most any liberal hates....

...and then what [MENTION=22470]Pyromancer[/MENTION] said about the garden variety buffet table Muslims being like the garden variety Christians...very true....and I quite like all the Arab people who I know as individuals...and I know a lot of them...and I am assuming they don't want me to live under Sharia Law...because if I thought they did....my feelings would change. That is he same way I feel about Christians too.....I am cool with them until I think they believe I am a second class citizen...then I say FUCK THEM...and I feel like I am defending Islam too often when the same rules apply. If Islam is your spiritual belief...I am cool with it until your belief wants to dictate to me what I should do with my life...and then force me (or anyone) to do it....

Oh yeah.. [MENTION=21084]Virge[/MENTION]...I do know Wafa Sultan...and I like her....

[Virge]

[MENTION=18508]East[/MENTION] ... do you remember the first words you and I exchanged here in GS? I do. I called you out on your own bigotry... your own irrational hate for making a few statements like

"I hate all ___(fill in the blank)__ people"

Okay... step back and take a breath. I'm not bringing this up to set a match to your panties. I'm bringing it up to point out that we all unintentionally backslide into becoming exactly what we do not want to be if we don't make a daily conscious effort not to. Your case of backsliding is the most common one and the easiest to fix. It's not a big deal and we all fall into it but, You can't stop what you're doing until you realize you're doing it. All I did was help you realize it.

For me when I backslide I get called out on it by Ray, my Mom, Dad, and a couple of other friends. I work HARD not to let hate slip back into my heart or the hearts of people like me who no one would blame for having hate for some people. I can honestly say I have accomplished some things in overcoming hate.
I learned to U N D E R S T A N D people.

How many in times in here have I posted links to a short parable that teaches all everyone needs to know about understanding anyone, everyone, anything, everything? Once you begin to understand what you think you hate there's no need to hate it because understanding destroys the ignorance that's necessary for ideologies to take root and produce hate within us.

ONCE ideology takes root in ignorance inside an individual everything is completely predictable. (but you can't stop what you're doing until you realize you're doing it)

The first thing that happens is associating more people who share the same ignorance and hate as part of an ideology and less with people and authors who would disagree with you. (this leads to affirmation through circular logic," we all believe the same thing therefore we are right because we all believe the same thing."

Next, (you can't stop what you're doing until you realize you're doing it) is a slow process towards denigrating, minimizing and dehumanizing people who do not share your ideology supported hate.

Next comes the collective delusion that since everyone you associate with shares the same ideology and hate then you are the majority and you begin to assert your opinions as being superior to others.

It's not some out of the blue sky coincidence that most people who have hatred for others justifies it with their preferred ideology. Ideologies and hate are partners more often than not. It's also not some out of the blue sky coincidence that hate and ideology almost always incorporate and depend on ignorance to survive and spread.

I have every right to hate every Muslim man woman and child on this earth but I don't anymore. I'm accused of on a regular basis, not by Muslims but by US LIBERALS because what I have to say about Islam does not fit the narrative of their ideology. They do not take into consideration I have taken a lot of time replacing hatred with understanding of Muslims and Islam. "you're a hater" "you're a Islamophobe" "you must be in a Tea Party" ... their responses show a total absence of understanding (ignorance) about Islam and their immersion in an ideology.

But I'm not even to the worst part of the relationship between ideology, ignorance and hate. None of it is based upon reason or facts because reason and facts only can accepted at the expense of ignorance, hate and ideology. They cannot defend what they believe say or do with facts or reason therefore they lie, invent facts, and throw out reason in to support their ideologies.... That is as true in religion as it is politics. If you think this doesn't apply to your own religious or political affiliations then you are deceiving yourself. You are putting what you believe ahead of facts and reason (you can't stop what you're doing until you realize you're doing it)

[COLOR="Blue"]Here's all you need to know about understanding.

A wise man received a university professor who came to inquire about the nature of understanding. The wise man served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring. The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!"

"Like this cup," the wise man said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you anything about understanding unless you first empty your cup?"[/COLOR]

[MikeW]

....I do want to defend free speech...and it is how I justify siding with the liberals...but then I remember that they want to actually take away my own free speech and freedom of expression in the name of their sky daddy...and I am deeply conflicted....

It would be so much easier for me if they were powerless...like the Fred Phelps Klan from Kansas...but they aren't powerless....and the percentage of people who believe that sharia law should be the law of the land for everyone in these countries is staggering...and sharia law... it is everything most any liberal hates.......

How powerful are they in YOUR life? Do they have the power to take away YOUR freedom in any sense of the word?

I'm asking this question because, as you should know by now, I do not trust world events -- much less the reportage of those events -- as either "natural" (i.e., happening without the interference of international intelligence/counterintelligence) or "truthful" (free from propaganda and bias). I know for a fact that the developed nations of the west use the US military to advance their economic agenda. So far as the middle east is concerned, that agenda was spelled out in "The Grand Chessboard," by Zbigniew Brzezinski, in 1997.

To me it is no mere coincidence that we hear so much about the horrors of Shia Islam among people who just happen to inhabit a geopolitical region that WE (western economic interests) have a rather great stake in.

I am NOT arguing that people, any people anywhere, should be free to discriminate against others (much less stone them or behead them). HOWEVER, I think we need to always keep what we're told about all this -- even by well respected spokes person's as Ayaan Hirisi Ali -- in perspective. Yes, it is true, Shia Islam causes great harm to many people -- women and children. BUT.. here's the kicker for me. HOW MANY MEN WOMEN AND CHILDREN HAVE DIED AT THE HANDS OF THE US MILITARY IN IRAQUE AND AFGHANISTAN SINCE 2001? Does anyone know? Does anyone care? -- OH... these statistics don't matter because, well, because WE are responsible for them -- and everyone knows that WE can do no wrong -- and besides "they" started it? [ETA: 'And THEY are TERRORISTS! We are LIBERATORS!!' (humongous eye roll)]

This is what rankles me. The real threat to my personal freedom is not some gothic belief system in the heads of a few (even if it is tens of thousands, that's still only a few) people who live on the other side of the planet. Especially when I'm pretty sure that a lot of their behavior is being seeded and fueled by our own counter-intelligence for their own clandestine purposes. The threats to my freedom are MUCH closer to home.

This is the perspective I view all this from. I don't believe for one second that what is being reported in the news media, especially the corporate news media but almost just as equally the government funded "public" media -- is anywhere near objective, let alone factual and free of propaganda. I'm quite convinced that the whole of Western civilization, and the US in particular, is ruled by full-spectrum dominance and has only the *illusion* of genuine freedom. That is to say, we're free to say and do pretty much whatever we want *so long as we do not directly question or threaten the economic and deep-political power structures that determine both domestic and foreign policy*. As Martin Luther King discovered in the last second of his life, one can say and do a lot to advance human rights and freedom SO LONG AS it stays within certain bounds. Go outside those bounds and speak the truth -- that the US government is the biggest purveyor of violence this planet has ever known -- and you're very likely to get popped. Oh, yeah, and by a "lone nut".

It's like everything else... it's always about "THOSE OTHER PEOPLE". It's always about people pointing fingers at other people so those pointing the finger don't have to look at, much less take responsibility for, their own bullshit. And when we're talking bullshit at the level of international espionage and on-going resource wars that have grown out of a hierarchical economic system that is built upon non-renewable energy sources (hey, the less there is of something, the more demand for it, thus the more valuable, right?) --we're talking some of the biggest, stinkiest pile of BULLSHIT humanity has ever endured.

Shia Islam may be "a" problem; it is not THE problem.

[East]

[MENTION=21084]Virge[/MENTION] ...I intend to think about what you have said...and I want to see if I can replace the hate with understanding...it is a worthy goal....

[MENTION=20947]MikeW[/MENTION] ...well...wow....damn... you know exactly what to say to me. That is rare...I am a little ...ahem...difficult...for a lot of people because I believe exactly everything you wrote to be the truth...and many people get pissed off when they find out what I think. There is one slight disagreement however....I do believe Ayaan Hirisi Ali's experience to be the norm versus the exception...and this goes way back to the 70s for me. I do, however, think BECAUSE OF HER EXPERIENCE she could be used as a tool and an example by the people who seek to shape our perceptions....

[MikeW]

There is one slight disagreement however....I do believe Ayaan Hirisi Ali's experience to be the norm versus the exception...and this goes way back to the 70s for me. I do, however, think BECAUSE OF HER EXPERIENCE she could be used as a tool and an example by the people who seek to shape our minds....

There's no disagreement at all, then. I'm not questioning the truthfulness of her accounts. Ruthless domination and manipulation of other human beings (be they men, women, children, gay, another color, a lower economic class or w/t/f/e) has been the mainstay of the male dominating class for millennia. It's just not limited to one religion or one geopolitical region or one race or w/e.

But you know what bothers me more than the ruthless brute-force physical domination of a group? >>> The FAR more subtle but equal, if not superior, domination of a subject population through perception control. That truly worries me because I see it everywhere around me, in everyone around me. I even see it in myself.