"Straight Acting"

[meridannight]

@meridannight, this was not the point I was making. This is not what I think, this is what some 'queer' people think : that wanting same sex marriage is imitating straight life....

i understood that when i was replying to you. sorry, i didn't mean to make it look like i thought that was your point of view. i was just quoting you but arguing against such a train of thought in general. some things get lost on this one-dimensional internet.

I think 'queer' defines different ways in dealing with art, with politics, with family and relationships than how a heteronormative society would define these issues. Therefore it was being a misfit (note that being 'gay' is not the only attribute that could make you 'queer' (considered as or consider yourself as) that made you not fit in with the rest of society but also gave you a different perspective on life. 'Queer' culture might seem less inhibited.

i get the bolded parts and all, but i will never associate any of that with the word 'queer'. for me, 'queer' holds strongly negative connotations. i will never grow fond of that word.

at the same time, being a misfit, and having a different way of dealing with life etc --- that does not have negative connotations. there's nothing negative there for me. but queer is negative.

also, i think labeling part of the world as heteronormative is bullshit. there is no such thing. we are all people. the only area of life where gay guys are not the same as heterosexual men is who they have sex and fall in love with. the only difference. ergo, there's no meaning in categorizing gay men's lives as somehow fundamentally different than heterosexual men's lives. the end.

[ShiftyNJ]

I have been, for some stupid reason, thinking about this a lot lately, maybe in light of the focus on high school that was brought about by the aforementioned funeral (see post called "ugh") and a recent meet-up with some friends from that time. I have been meaning to post about it here somewhere, and--even though this thread went negative pretty quickly--I figured we're already on the subject.

I didn't know I was gay in high school. I didn't know it was a thing. I knew that I felt about certain guys the same way I felt about certain girls, and that this was something "wrong" which I couldn't tell people. I had no examples of what a healthy same-gender-attracted person should be.

One thing I did know is that there was a circle around the cool, confident, athletic guys and I was not in that circle. Even if I liked girls more than guys (I dated girls until I was in my late 20s) I would probably not be in that circle. And I think (having had many years to look at it) that part of my own insecurity about self-presentation is rooted in that feeling of being excluded.

I am starting to think that the affinity for "straight-acting" is an inelegant way of trying to affirm your own maleness, even if your way of understanding it is based on some pretty restrictive norms. There is some sexism at its root, to be sure, because we still live in a world that places men above women, subtly at some times and overtly at others, but -- if you ARE a guy -- it's not really that strange to want to feel like you are one of "the guys" ... to be "included" and "normal". For many of us who grew up with nobody suggesting that gender variance existed, let alone was normal, we might seek out the attention and approval of guys who fit that mold as a means of finally stepping into that fucking circle.

I know for me it has been a long road. I went through many of the same thought processes that the OP and other guys who have come and gone from this site and RJ have expressed. I went from dreading gym class to working in a sports training facility for ten years and participating in strongman competitions. I don't regret that because I am really happy with what I can do physically, and how I look today compared to some of those same classmates! I would be lying if I didn't get off on that a little. But part of my motivation was less about being healthy and more about staking a claim in a stereotypically male space and proving (to myself and the other guys in there) that I could hold my own. I think that this is something society drums into guys regardless of your sexuality, and I am just as susceptible to it.

Paradoxically, at the same time I was exploring the local gay social scene. Over the years I experienced discomfort around flamboyant guys who might draw attention to my crowd in public, and still am not particularly fond of drag. But I get it that these are MY issues, and they don't make the other person "bad" or "wrong". But -- and [MENTION]meridanight[/MENTION], your comment made me think about this-- I was getting some derision from some of the guys I met because of this and some of the other interests I enjoy (I grew up in the woods and am all about building stuff, camping out, not afraid generally of getting dirty or sweaty). I had guys say stuff like "are you sure you're not a lesbian?" That was more of a turn-off to me than camp mannerisms, the fact that there was the same degree of "you're supposed to" based on your orientation, from the other direction.

When I see a fit, confident guy, I don't want to (just) get with that guy, I want to BE more like that guy, and I learned that I can, and the sexuality label wasn't going to stop me. I'm not necessarily proud of it, but I still get a little rush when a guy I'd put in that "alpha" category notices me or something I did in a positive way. Shoot me, I want to be in the circle.

Do you ever really leave high school completely?

[princealbertofb]

i understood that when i was replying to you. sorry, i didn't mean to make it look like i thought that was your point of view. i was just quoting you but arguing against such a train of thought in general. some things get lost on this one-dimensional internet.



i get the bolded parts and all, but i will never associate any of that with the word 'queer'. for me, 'queer' holds strongly negative connotations. i will never grow fond of that word.

at the same time, being a misfit, and having a different way of dealing with life etc --- that does not have negative connotations. there's nothing negative there for me. but queer is negative.

also, i think labeling part of the world as heteronormative is bullshit. there is no such thing. we are all people. the only area of life where gay guys are not the same as heterosexual men is who they have sex and fall in love with. the only difference. ergo, there's no meaning in categorizing gay men's lives as somehow fundamentally different than heterosexual men's lives. the end.

I believe you are right about the negative connotations of the word at its origins, but queers have decided to own that word just like the blacks have decided to own the word "nigga" or "nigger", not originally meant to be mean but to distinguish skin colour, it became a synonym of the ultimate insult, until the African Americans decided to own it. As a Caucasian I cannot use that word without being considered scornful, but it's fine for a person of African descent to use that word, if they want to.... after all, it's only recognising that they are from the other continent originally. Depending on how it's used, it could even have a certain amount of pride attached to it, when used by some people.

[princealbertofb]

Beautifully put, [MENTION=21783]ShiftyNJ[/MENTION]. It's also a generational 'thing' or something to do with local culture as much as anything else..

[princealbertofb]

i understood that when i was replying to you. sorry, i didn't mean to make it look like i thought that was your point of view. i was just quoting you but arguing against such a train of thought in general. some things get lost on this one-dimensional internet.



i get the bolded parts and all, but i will never associate any of that with the word 'queer'. for me, 'queer' holds strongly negative connotations. i will never grow fond of that word.

at the same time, being a misfit, and having a different way of dealing with life etc --- that does not have negative connotations. there's nothing negative there for me. but queer is negative.

also, i think labeling part of the world as heteronormative is bullshit. there is no such thing. we are all people. the only area of life where gay guys are not the same as heterosexual men is who they have sex and fall in love with. the only difference. ergo, there's no meaning in categorizing gay men's lives as somehow fundamentally different than heterosexual men's lives. the end.

Right, the world isn't (not just part of it) heteronormative? Societies don't take their cue from what the majority of other people do? Of course, they do. We have been taught to be, become and behave like all straight little boys have been throughout societies. Don't tell me there isn't a gender distinction that becomes almost inbred, it's so pervasive. How else would so many of us have to or feel they have to behave like 'straight acting' if that weren't the case. We are fed stories of Adam and Eve, of Cinderellas and Princes Charming from the word go... then at some point we start wondering 'what's wrong with me?'. Even in our daily speech we automatically assume that the rest of the world is probably straight before we decide otherwise.

[meridannight]

Right, the world isn't (not just part of it) heteronormative? Societies don't take their cue from what the majority of other people do? Of course, they do. We have been taught to be, become and behave like all straight little boys have been throughout societies. Don't tell me there isn't a gender distinction that becomes almost inbred, it's so pervasive. How else would so many of us have to or feel they have to behave like 'straight acting' if that weren't the case. We are fed stories of Adam and Eve, of Cinderellas and Princes Charming from the word go... then at some point we start wondering 'what's wrong with me?'. Even in our daily speech we automatically assume that the rest of the world is probably straight before we decide otherwise.

societies take their cues from the majority at large, that is true. but it has nothing to do with sexuality in the way you put it.

you think you were taught to act like a male? that it was something your parents, caregivers, etc brainwashed onto you? character and traits have a strong biological basis. they are there in your brain when you're born, and some of those things will be impossible/difficult to change with outside influence. that has been my point from the get go. if most guys act like average guys, it's because it's an average biological trait, not something their parents or the society caused. rather, it's a positive-feedback cycle where the society keeps expecting men to behave like men because that's how men themselves have behaved, and men keep expressing that because that's what comes most naturally to them (most of them, gay or straight).

if anybody feels they are 'acting' anything, whether to appear more in line with the straight male population or something else, then they are usually also aware that they are, indeed, acting, and it's not their true expression of self. deviations from the norm happen with most everything, that's completely clear to everyone. just like there are men who naturally behave in a more feminine manner (and they can be gay or straight), on the other side there are men who are too 'macho' to the point where it becomes a destructive and a non-desirable trait.

the only thing the society expects is some average general masculine expression (consolidated throughout the centuries because of natural biological expression) which is rather wide in its range to begin with. and it is this way because that is what comes most naturally in most cases. it's not something created by the society. its symbolism (prince charming, etc), that is created by the society, and that can range from moronic to inspiring, but it is at our own discretion to weed out the more farcical symbols from the true genuine ones.

i do agree some of the fairy tale figures and other symbols children are fed can be confusing to them, and they can create false perceptions. but it doesn't change the child's nature. it is in the way the person reacts to those symbols where the character reflects. which of them he is drawn to, which of them he rejects, etc.

just as an example, when i was a kid my heroes were Odysseus and Julius Caesar, not some fairy tale prince charming. of course, i read the fairy tales too, and i get the basic premise behind the prince charming fantasy, but that never appealed to me like Julius Caesar did. i didn't identify with that. whatever symbol(s) promoted by the society that the man identifies with, it's because he can see part of himself in there. and we have plenty of symbols to choose from. not just the comical fairy tale princes. masculinity has plenty socially-acceptable expressions and symbols to go around for most every guy. it doesn't boil down to just one single dimension.

the world is not heteronormative, the world is just normative around average values. that's how it is with most everything, not just male behavior and traits.

[meridannight]

also, [MENTION=1766]princealbertofb[/MENTION], the real problem here, is that the society doesn't have positive symbolism/role models for guys who are more feminine in nature. that's the true issue that needs solving, not some 'heteronormative' nonsense.

[wayward]

Yes it is. Women are women. It can be argued that dressing up itself is childish. In a world where we do dress up, women dress and act like women, and men dress and act like men. You can probably win this argument, and probably will, but definitely not by taking the high ground...

You can't march blindly on, you have to accept the mirrored-image - the opposite view, at least in the slightest. Yes it is childish because, you put it on, you're playing, you're having fun, you're enjoying fantasies. Unlike sexuality, it's by choice. Is it fair for people, excuse my French, 'trapped' by their sexuality, to be associated with childish behaviour?

Now that you have revealed you associate fun with being childish, and that you dislike childishness, it can be safely assumed you're never gonna have any fun. That's life darling, live with it. (I say all this in the most endearing way possible)

[princealbertofb]

Admit there is a certain amount of 'brainwashing' or a least formating going on though...

[wayward]

YAAAAS BETCH I HEAR U! Let's ditch these queenies, they b makin us all look bad hunn. I'll check in with u l8r booboo; I'm having a bitchin' hair day and I'm gunna go hit the strip and show off my style. Straight acting gays on point hun! Represent!

Who is that stunning queen? I should be ashamed of my ignorance, but let's say I don't get out near often enough. Take pity!