how have we become like this?

[meridannight]

according to [MENTION=23145]valkyrie4488[/MENTION], [MENTION=21156]Anocxu[/MENTION] (yeah, we've been blissfully ignoring one another for a while, but now i am bringing you into this), [MENTION=22564]VirgoMasquerade[/MENTION] and maybe some others as well, opinions in the negative are not tolerated here. lest some imaginary person get hurt.

how have you all become so sensitive that every word in the negative is taken as an insult? how have you become so obstinate that you don't even believe it when a guy is explaining to you that what he said wasn't said as an insult?

to draw a parallel from real life as opposed to forums -- i fucking hate smoking. i think it is a disgusting and stupid habit. i have friends who smoke. i've said these exact words to them to their face ''a disgusting and a stupid habit''. guess what? they understand and actually agree. nobody takes it seriously in real life. they understand what i mean, what anybody means when they express something negative. it doesn't mean i don't hate them, or that we can't be friends.

but on the internet it becomes a battle of self-righteous egos standing up for hurt perpetrated on imaginary beings by words.

you forget that hurt is part of life. people get hurt all the time. it's normal. we deal with it. we think about it, we assess whether the person is right or wrong, and we make up our own mind. we get stronger. we don't try to censor their opinion. have we become really this weak as to be crushed and hurt by words from an anonymous person on the internet? for all you know i could be some mentally retarded idiot saying things i say and you are hurt?

i've been here for over a year. i've gotten along with most of you, i've even come across some really amazing guys here, and most of you haven't tried to censor me. i've disagreed with some of you, we've argued and we've acknowledged one another's opinion. it is not the right thing to do to tell another guy not to post his negative opinions. just because you imagine it might be hurtful.

i am leaving this site. i don't want to be in a place where free expression is not allowed. i'll stick around until my account deletion goes through, and then you can go on with your blissful threads where nobody ever disagrees and you don't get hurt over things you imagined the poster meant, whether he actually did or did not.

thanks a lot for this. it is really disappointing to see great guys imagining up hurt at the slightest chance, and not being able to tolerate a difference of opinion.

[Cobalt]

If that's how you feel then farewell. If a site is giving you grief, it just isn't worth it. Cut your ties with what stresses you. Best of luck.

[VirgoMasquerade]

No baby don't try this shit with me. If you have a disagreement with someone you pick up your balls and move on you don't sit there and cry like a baby and call foul. Act like a grown man and suck it up

[Gideon]

I don't think it's a matter of differing opinions, but how they are expressed.

From my perspective, it seems that often these "opinions" are often stated in ways that can be hurtful, offensive, crass, condescending and just flat out rude.

I've personally stopped responding as that seems the best way to avoid the snippy backlash and I know of a few who have blocked entirely.

When it stops being a friendly debate or even personal opinion and starts sounding like disrespect and lack of consideration, it's just not worth it, yeah?

Just my two cents

[East]

I almost hit the delete button the other day Meridan....still haven't made up my mind not to.....the site has changed lately...or maybe it is me that has changed?....not really sure if it even matters.... and I definitely feel like I am completely out of place now...in fact...I know I am....

...and the guy who thought we didn't take baths...uh....time for me to move on or at least take a break I think....

You know...Jerry Seinfeld, Louis CK and my favorite ...Chris Rock...have decided not to play college campuses anymore...too many people are offended by everything. My own sense of humor I have deleted entirely on the internet and it is kinda wierd reading myself because my humor is part of my personality....

Anyway...I love reading you....and I will miss you very much....but maybe take a deep breath and walk away without deleting and check back in sometime to see if the vibe has changed?

[Emiliano]

I don't know if it really is an issue of people becoming sensitive to the words and opinions of others, or if its more about people finally being empowered enough to stand up for themselves. I dislike when voices and opinions which have been historically silenced are called whiny and sensitive when they are vocalized. I dislike when support for those voices is brushed aside as PC nonsense. I know I've said it before on this forum, but again - demanding to be treated with respect is not the action of an overly sensitive PC coward.

I saw the thread that lead to this one. And I read your posts. And I recognize that you were stating your opinion. As you have every right and reason to. But all the people who gave negative feedback about your opinion and word choices had every right and reason to do so too. Just as you argue people should not expect to be coddled and wrapped in a fuzzy blanket of supportive and positive words - I've been mistaken for an idealist many times, but I am with you, and of the very strong belief that we do ourselves and others no good to pretend this world is not what it actually is - you should not expect to be given high fives simply because it is the less popular opinion in this situation and environment.

The way that it seemed as if you were being ganged up on is probably related to the fact that this forum has more or less an environment of being a safe space, and a supportive community. If you go to other forums, or in most places off of the internet, your views would certainly be of the majority and the situation would be reversed in terms of who was being called out. It can sting and put a person on the defensive when it feels like you are being singled out. But trust that a lot of people on this forum also probably know that sting all too well.

I've observed that the only interactions I've had with you that I'd consider negative are ones where the topic of masculinity are being brought up. You seem to not only have fairly rigid and traditional views of masculinity and gender, but also an apparent compulsion to proselytize that view. Which is fine - I'm not trying to judge you about it, just to point out an observation.

But because your opinion is more in line with traditional views and definitions of masculinity, you should have an awareness that you are probably not the first voice that these people have heard expressing that cross dressing or any sort of play with blurring the lines of masculinity is distasteful, disgusting, or not true to what a gay man should be about. They hear it from hetero-normative society. They hear it from parents, religious leaders, and also from within the gay community and its presence in the media as well. You may view their reactions as being "wah wah, you hurt my feelings", but it might just as well have been "Im tired of hearing this and Im going to say something about it."

The reason we probably see less of an emotional or aggressive reaction in person as compared to online interactions is because we all benefit from the element and illusion of anonymity that the internet provides, as well as the safety of being behind a screen - to think, edit, reword, delete our words. When you have a point of view that is culturally and historically discredited or taboo, it takes serious physical as well as social risks in your daily offline life to stand up for yourself.

I also don't view it as hypocrisy. Because I think online expression, solidarity, and empowerment have the potential to bleed into offline interactions. This generation is seeing a lot of movements that begin online having real world effects. And again, those who have historically been excluded or have had their voices silenced understand that being loud and being visible has to be part of the plan. Those of a more traditional view and those with certain privilege do not like that. James Baldwin put it much more eloquently than I could when he said "The victim who is able to articulate the situation of the victim has ceased to be a victim: he or she has become a threat.'

When people reject your traditional views of masculinity, it is not trying to censor you. Censoring you would be requesting that mods delete your posts and ban you from accessing the site. Claiming to have found yourself in a place where free expression is not allowed, to me, sounds like when Christians say they are being victimized because they are no longer given the social and legal power by the state to dictate the lives of everyone around them. Your right to express an opinion does not exclude you from having to deal with reactions to your expressed opinion. That goes both ways. In a sense you are censoring yourself by removing your voice from the discussion. And even though I don't agree with all of your opinions, I'm sorry to hear that is your plan.

I wouldn't have said anything if you had not brought the fact that this interaction has caused you to decide to leave the forum. Again, you were expressing an opinion and you had the right to. But now I've gone and written an essay about it, because obviously this relates to a larger issue I have with society and current issues.

But I do want to say that I don't dislike you, or hold anything you've said in conversation with me against you. Im pretty interested in your thought process, from what I've observed of it, and I'm honestly disappointed to hear that you are going to dismiss yourself from the site over interactions like what happened here. I'm disappointed partly because I can't help but to find the irony in someone expressing that they are leaving a site because they perceive it as not allowing free expression... because they dislike the way others have expressed themselves. I hope that you might change you mind about leaving, because I do think you have an important perspective to share.


Now that I've wrote all of this I'm hesitant to post it. But screw it, this is a thread about the importance of free expression.

[Beaux]

Wether you leave or stay, which is completely up to you, I wish you the best. While you and I have had disagreements here and there, I respect you opinions, though I occasionally disagree with your approach.

Regardless, I have been on this forum for quite some time and remain as much a bitch today as the day I joined.

Over the years, I have seen the personality and mood-swings in this forum change as quickly as the membership. I feel particularly close to some members who I have known since making my first post here, while I take other members with a grain-of-salt and patiently wait for them to fade away. The majority DO fade away, after all...

Good Luck!
~Beaux

[meridannight]

Wether you leave or stay, which is completely up to you, I wish you the best. While you and I have had disagreements here and there, I respect you opinions, though I occasionally disagree with your approach.

Good Luck!
~Beaux

thanks, man. i wish you the best too. i hope things are okay with you and your husband and your health.

take care.

[LJay]

Which specific post tipped this into such seriousness?

I am afraid that I am guilty of sometimes not being serious enough about things here and elsewhere. The grain of salt that I take things with is a pretty well developed crystal.

If I disagree with someone here, or anywhere else, I usually do not become too animated simply because a forum is an open place for expression, not a dogmatic system.

[MENTION=18508]East[/MENTION], please elaborate. I have missed your posting of late and do not want it to end.

@Meridanight, I hope you realize that you often state things in such a way that makes it clear that there is a divide between you and others. That is fine. Keep it up. Though not everyone will agree with you. So? There is no great harm in that.

It is probably best that those who can explain what is going on explain it to me in a PM. No need to provoke a cat fight among all and sundry.

Be well and please remember the wisdom referred to in the statement by Brahms, I believe, as he left a party, "If there are any here whom I have not yet offended, I apologize." If you know the music of Brahms, you will realize that it is full of deep and profoundly expressed belief. So be it.

[meridannight]

But because your opinion is more in line with traditional views and definitions of masculinity, you should have an awareness that you are probably not the first voice that these people have heard expressing that cross dressing or any sort of play with blurring the lines of masculinity is distasteful, disgusting, or not true to what a gay man should be about. They hear it from hetero-normative society. They hear it from parents, religious leaders, and also from within the gay community and its presence in the media as well. You may view their reactions as being "wah wah, you hurt my feelings", but it might just as well have been "Im tired of hearing this and Im going to say something about it."

i am, in fact, not aware of this. but then they should phrase it as such. not camouflage their repeatedly-felt discontent behind a smokescreen directed at discrediting my opinion as something that shouldn't be expressed and misqualify that as an insult.

instead you're the one offering this explanation, you who wasn't even involved there.

When you have a point of view that is culturally and historically discredited or taboo, it takes serious physical as well as social risks in your daily offline life to stand up for yourself.

does that mean you have to exaggerate it on the internet, and react to every counter-opinion as if it was directed as an insult? does that inevitably entail imagining hurt behind words that are completely acceptable for one to describe how they feel about something?

to me it is distasteful and disgusting. and there is nothing unacceptable about using such words. i didn't say those people themselves were distasteful or disgusting. there is a big difference between finding an act distasteful and the person, and one should not be confused for the other. one of the most important passages i posted there was this:

finding a behavior distasteful is not the same as finding the person doing it distasteful. i don't condemn men for their bad habits, or any other flaws for that matter. if i love a man, i will love him even if he wears fucking female underwear (a practice i detest). i see men for who they are deep inside, and nothing else matters to me but that. what a man does, what he wears, how he behaves – those things are all less important to me than who he is as a man.

the full explanation of what i said and where i was coming from with it all was in that one passage. but it got completely ignored, and instead all the wrong parts were repeatedly focused on.

And again, those who have historically been excluded or have had their voices silenced understand that being loud and being visible has to be part of the plan.

i think a lot of things shouldn't be made out to be a movement or a thing to fight about. i also think a lot of people yearn for attention too much, and this is where it's coming from. not everything has to be fought over and made a public demonstration of.

When people reject your traditional views of masculinity, it is not trying to censor you. Censoring you would be requesting that mods delete your posts and ban you from accessing the site.

i was explicitly told 'why even post if i didn't like the practice?', more than once. that is an attempt in the direction of censorship, or an elimination (or discouragement, if you will) of expression of negative views.

these:

If you are not into that then don't comment on an irrelevant topic.

if you don't like it, then why even post here in the first place

What the point is though is that if you don't like it, then why even post here in the first place

those lines have a clear connotation to them that negative opinions should not be posted. you can go back and re-argue yourselves and modify your intentions now that i call you out on it (because in retrospect they come off clearly stupid), but asking a person 'why are you even speaking up if you don't like the music?' has an indirect assumption that negative opinions are not welcome. really? why are people speaking up? who are you to even ask that in a place where everyone should have their say?

and then i additionally get called ignorant for my opinions that i have every right to hold. as if having to like men dressed up as women was something everyone should aspire to like, the reverse being ignorance.

Claiming to have found yourself in a place where free expression is not allowed, to me, sounds like when Christians say they are being victimized because they are no longer given the social and legal power by the state to dictate the lives of everyone around them.

i pushed the 'freedom of speech' part a bit too far there. there is freedom of speech here, after all, and it was unfair of me to claim that there isn't. that was more an emotional reaction from me, than something i meant literally.

but this type of thing – when i express my honest opinion, when i am misunderstood and then genuinely try to explain to people who misunderstood me what it was i really meant – only to have them ignore it completely and keep injecting meaning into what i said that weren't there, and keep obsessing over imagined hurt – it makes me feel hopeless. it makes this whole process of attempting to communicate with other people here on this forum utterly pointless.

If that's not your thing that's fine and it's understandable but for you to come here and talk about him like that is low

none of that 'low' was ever expressed by me about Scootaloo. and no matter how well i tried to explain it, all i got was insistence that it was there. you tell me, what is the point in explaining yourself and trying to have a conversation when people think they can speak for you in your absence and don't even take your words as real?

In a sense you are censoring yourself by removing your voice from the discussion.

i have always been a lot better in in person communication than online. maybe it is that i never should have come here in the first place. 90% of the information is missing on the internet.

when i talk to men in real life, i can understand them from the way they move, from something as simple as a hand gesture, or the way they look at me. to me, it seems inevitable that i ultimately am incompatible with online communication. where i belong, is in the real world, not on the internet.

this argument was just something that precipitated it. i don't hate anybody, but i do hate when my expressions are not understood for what they are, or when i'm not even believed when i explain myself. in other words, i hate it when i can't express myself genuinely and when other people can't understand what it was i expressed. internet communication is incompatible with me, i've known that for a long time, but this just made me realize that maybe it's just better to give it up entirely. some things you just can't make work.