Im not sure if its ok to get a girlfriend

[Doc]

You said the sex with women was ok. Was the sex with guys only ok, too?

It was different, I never really surrendered myself to them Ive always been the dominant partner. It was more like I was having them rather than we were having each other. I know its stupid but its seems more masculine that way.

[meridannight]

I like the idea of having a wife and a little house and children and I could go to work my wife could take care of my house. Around the holidays we could do stupid stuff like all families do such as taking your children to the pumpkin patch. And people would say what a beautiful couple we make. Its normal, its acceptable, and its what people expect. Haven't any of you guys ever wanted that?

And the reason you can't have that with a man is...?

I don't want exactly that (e.g. I don't want any kids). But I want to make a life with a man, to care about him and to be there for him. I want to go on vacations with him, to the beach, take him to Paris, etc, all the silly stuff included. Get a house of our own, maybe a dog. I don't really need much more than that.

The problem with you is that you want to be acceptable to other people. I don't get that, I told you way back somewhere on this thread. But fine, that's what you want. Don't you understand though, that the only way it's a real acceptance is if people know the real you? You can be attracted to men, marry another man, and still be a respectable citizen. Why are you not seeing that?

I have alot of other issues too. I have a violent streak and a bad temper, I dont like being touched in public. I dont even know how to cry, not since I was real little. I dont even talk about my feelings, Ive written stuff here that I would never talk about with anybody.

It is a good thing that you started to talk about this stuff. Now you just have to keep on working on it and talking about it. Ideally you need to find someone in real life you can talk to, someone who can be there for you. And change won't happen overnight. But it will get better as time goes by.

Those things -- being touched in public, intimacy, feelings, etc -- that is all part of the normal spectrum of human emotion/experience. And you are missing out on life by not allowing yourself those things. Human touch is one of the best things in life there is. I don't know what it is that made you so broken, but you have to start working toward getting better to live a more fuller and enjoyable life.

Social acceptance alone is not going to bring you fulfillment in life. It's a placebo not a cure. Underneath the surface you'll still be as broken and fucked up as you are right now. I can't force you to understand this. But I hope one day it clicks and you realize it before it's too late.

All Im saying is that my orientation may be the least of my issues, and if I had somebody like a girlfriend just to talk to about some of this stuff I'd feel alot better, that to me would be more fulfilling than any man that Ive ever known.

You need a friend or a companion to talk to about all this stuff, that much is clear. But you are confusing it that your current need for an emotional exchange with another person is something that can only be found in a romantic relationship. And you are rushing to the wrong conclusion in your hurry to make your life better. You do need to make your life better, but the way you're telling us you want to do it, is not going to help you in the long run.

And this is the last thing about this, in many places homosexuality is still seen as a weakness and I hate more than anything else to be seen as weak or soft that why I dont let people hug me in public it makes me look soft. I spent my childhood getting into fist fights with everybody just so they would think I was a tough kid, I dont want to throw all that away know. You know gays are tough and so do I, alot of ancient warriors were gay we know this. But alot of people still see just see a weak faggot, its a shame but it is what it is.

A lot of people will think you're weak if you don't drive an SUV, a muscle car, don't dress in a certain way, go see a certain movie...etc etc. Do you understand that you are letting other people's petty prejudice dictate your life choices? How can you be okay with that as a man? Especially since you understand being gay does not equal being weak?

It is weakness what you are doing -- you are caving in to the external pressure of the most negative people that are out there. Strong would be to stand on your own the way you are. Not having the guts to stand up to other people and say, this is who I am, take it or leave it (or your version of it), that is the true weakness in life. And no-one will respect you for it, including those bigots whose acceptance you so much crave.

All those men in history and not so distant past who didn't have the backing of the law or the civil rights, who still stayed true to themselves and lived their life according to what felt right for them, others be damned -- that was the true courage. You have it so much easier than them.

[Doc]

meridannight the reason I can have that with a man is, its not the way I planned it when I was a kid. It sounds silly I know, I like sticking to my plans

Well anyway I met that girl the other day and luckily she was a bit too redneck for me, and me a my friends ended up drinking and playing cards all night I wanted to tell my best friend all night but I just couldnt. Then at 2am they started to leave and then came the bro hugs and I became very angry and called someone a fruit ( I know how 1950's of me )

I couldnt tell my bestie but I did try to prime him though and give him some clues, I told him the kind of girl I was looking for. Short, cute, with a low fade haircut that is skinned low and a bit longer on the top 5 or 6 inches of hair, skinny and boyish. He gave me a weird look and told me I was describing a lesbian. Are there straight girls that fit this description or lesbians that look like this that are closeted. I dont know any lesbians personally but I imagine that the boyish ones are out and open. Maybe Im crazy but I put boyish girls and puppies in the same category think they are adorable and I cant help but smile.

[Darius]

Doc, I doubt any of us here are surprised you like girls that look like boys.

[Doc]

Baby Steps Darius, at least now Im exploring my preferences , an androgynous girl might be the just the ticket, I dont know yet.

[meridannight]

meridannight the reason I can have that with a man is, its not the way I planned it when I was a kid. It sounds silly I know, I like sticking to my plans

Well, then I'm out of arguments. You want to go with what the 5-7-...-year-old you dreamed of even though your brain wasn't even fully developed back then and by the age 27 you should be a grown man capable of differentiating between what was a childhood uninformed fancy and what is a real desire. How can one argue with a mindset like that?

I don't mean to be demeaning toward you (I do think it's good that you're on this forum talking about it), but you're making it kind of hard to do otherwise. When I was a kid I wanted to become a soldier. When I grew up I discovered it did not fit in with my plans for my life. I had no problem dropping that juvenile idea.

What exactly do you want me to say to that anyway? Me and the other guys have given you fully decent advice, and you don't even disagree. But you come out with these completely childish arguments along 'I-can't-do-that-because-when-I-was-a-kid-I-wanted-the-opposite'. So you don't want to be happy, you don't want to make other people happy, you hold on to some abstract juvenile thoughts as your guide in life, and then you say you don't want to look weak at the same time. It's completely ridiculous.

These are all just lame excuses for not taking your real desires seriously. Because you're afraid to do that. Because if you allow yourself any of that you know that those desires inside you will win and you have nothing left but to follow them unquestionably into the life that is unknown and scary to you right now.

[MikeW]

...
These are all just lame excuses for not taking your real desires seriously. Because you're afraid to do that. Because if you allow yourself any of that you know that those desires inside you will win and you have nothing left but to follow them unquestionably into the life that is unknown and scary to you right now.

Yeah, but you know as well as I do that you can't save anyone from themselves.

The best we can do is state our position(s), which we have and then some, and hope the seeds we've planted eventually take root. Either they will or they won't and that's up to him.

My guess? One of these days he's going to WTFU and realize that he CAN have all the fun he wants... and more... and it ain't nobody's business if he does. My hope is he just doesn't wreck someone else's life in the process.

[Doc]

meridannight

Of course Im afraid, very afraid. If opened up myself right now Im sure where it would stop and it scares me. I want to have a wife and children. Why couldnt I have a husband and children?

When I was a kid from about age 6 or 7 till I graduated highschool, I got the shit beat out of me once or twice a week. They picked on me because I was smaller than they were that's it, all I ever did to piss them off was being small. They beat me up because they could. But Im not a pussy and I never took a beating lying down I always fought back but it was useless, no matter how hard I fought its difficult to fight 2 or 3 guys that are bigger than you. I won a few fights here and there but my childhood was fucking miserable. I mentioned before that I got into alot of fights and now Im a very violent and mean person, this is probably why. The only thing that kept me going was my dream of joining the army, when I graduated highschool I couldnt leave fast enough. Following a childhood dream saved may have saved my life and it was in the army where I made my first real friends.

What if me and my husband had a son, I couldnt imagine the hell it would be for a little boy with 2 daddys to go to a school where the kids are cruel, and children can be very cruel. I wouldnt want to give a child a harder time at going through life. I know what its like, I thought about suicide often and I was so beaten down that I was too scared to trust the nice kids. I couldnt subject a child to that type of ridicule not everyone is accepting and words do hurt especially children. What if they did to him what they did to me?

Im not trying to sound ungrateful I really do appreciate your advice, over the past few days you guys have given me some serious gut checks and it forced me to explain myself and admit alot of things Ive never admitted before and I feel better. I am scared of being gay, it scares me I dont even know any other gay people personally, except the men Ive been with but we never talked about this stuff its all new to me. Unfortunately Im starting to see just how fucked I am and how Im not really capable of the full range of emotions yet.

Just curious what stopped you from becoming a soldier, it was your dream? You'd meet alot of nice guys too.

[Doc]

You guys are right I need to figure it out before I can do anything. Thats means no more sex with men, no more sex with women, until I can un-fuck myself.

I think I should probably get some gay friends, because I dont have any they could help with my fence sitting. Should I go online or some popular gay hangouts?

I was talking with my best friend the other day about gay topics and he doesnt seem to hate gays. He also thinks its ok that I find boyish girls attractive, all of my male partners have been feminine men but he doesnt know that yet. If I come out and its a big if it will probably be to him first, he's a really good person.

So my attraction to men and women that fall within the androgynous no-mans land, maybe its nothing? Maybe its something? IDK I do know that I dont have a sexual attraction to women but I may have a romantic attraction to them? And vice versa with men? I know Im really fucking weird.

To answer someones questions one thing that I love about men is that my liaisons with them come very easy. Ive never had any difficulty hooking up, its very natural to me and men are very easy to talk to IMO

Please forgive my terminology Im not down on all the current or really any of the gay slang.

[Camfer]

I told him the kind of girl I was looking for. Short, cute, with a low fade haircut that is skinned low and a bit longer on the top 5 or 6 inches of hair, skinny and boyish. He gave me a weird look and told me I was describing a lesbian.

See, now that's two people telling you to find a lesbian! :biggrin: