Had a successful date (I think!)

[Flyerboy95]

[MENTION=23180]axle2152[/MENTION]

I have a real difficult time accepting myself, my self-worth is so low, and part of that stems as I say from a bad relationship. The other part comes from I don't consider myself to be a good looking guy, and despite losing a lot of weight this year, I still have a few extra pounds which are proving difficult to budge - this time of year doesn't help, with the stress of Uni and all that nice Christmas food about. This guy said he also lost a lot of weight, and used to be really overweight himself, one of the many things that we seem to have in common. I have a real battle with my self though, I'm my own worst enemy. When I left that date yesterday I felt euphoric and so happy, and literally as I was driving home my mood gradually deteriorated and by the time I got home I was saying 'Hmm but what if he doesn't like you as much as you like him?' and 'What if he called you handsome but doesn't really mean it?' - it's really, really, REALLY frustrating how I turn positives into negatives.

[MikeW]

Hmm, it's really hard to reply as it just keeps wanting Mod approval

The mod approval thing will go away once you have 50 posts... it is not anything you're doing or saying. It's just built into the forum system to keep trolls out. Go into the gaming forum and play one of the word games till you get 50 posts and that will be that.

As to what's going on. One suggestion I can make re his feeling awkward around your compliments is changing how you present them. For example, it is one thing to say "You are adorable," and another to say, "I find you adorable." In the latter statement, you're owning how you feel around him. You could even be more precise. I mean, what do you really mean by "adorable"? Do you want to adore him? Maybe just make it simpler... "I feel really good when I'm with you." (Or whatever is true for you.) The point being, when you own it that way, you're making a statement of how you feel, not about how he is. He may very well be adorable at times, as indeed, may you... but none of us ARE adorable. That is to say, people may find us that way, but that's how they feel in a particular moment, not how we actually ARE in some absolute sense. Does that make sense?

As for your overthinking things. Yeah... I find a lot of young guys, especially young gay ones, do this. It seems to be motivated by fear, fear of losing something, fear of doing something wrong, fear of feeling hurt or rejected. What it is for you, only you can say. But the point is, things are what they are. We are what we are. As [MENTION=23180]axle2152[/MENTION] and [MENTION=22727]Cridders88[/MENTION] are saying, self-confidence is largely a matter of self-acceptance. That isn't easy because we often don't see ourselves objectively. Just how that works will vary individual to individual. Some, for example, may have an over-inflated view of themselves or certain aspects of themselves while others have just the opposite, a devaluing of themselves and their attributes or qualities.

IDK, there just seems to be certain lessons we have to learn in life. For me what it boils down to is knowing the only way any relationship can work is through a) being honest (both with myself and the other guy) and b) giving the other guy a lot of slack. I remember, for example, when I was getting to know my first partner, David (this was a long time ago... he's been dead for over 20 years... at my age, you look at things in decades). When we were still dating we got into an argument about something. What, I no longer recall. It doesn't matter. The thing is, David was in my apartment and he started getting verbally abusive toward me. I threw him the fuck out and told him quite plainly, I wouldn't allow him (or anyone) to speak to me that way. Now, you might think THAT would have been the end of our dating. Well... it wasn't. The truth is, I liked him and I knew he liked me. But we'd hit a rough spot, disagreeing about something. That didn't in and of itself mean we were incompatible... it just meant we had an issue that needed to be worked through. So, IDK, a few days later after I'd calmed down a bit (and I hoped he had as well) I took the initiative of calling him to talk. He was surprised I did this. He apologized for being rude to me and we went on to talking about whatever the disagreement had been about.

The point I'm making here is that... it seems guys THINK that when they meet "Mr. Right" (as if there is such a thing)... it's all going to be hearts and flowers forever and ever. To me, that is just such an immature way of looking at life and relationships it just makes me want to hurl. Dig it, we're ALL human. We all have baggage. We all have problems. We all have our good points and bad, strengths and weaknesses. The question is, are we going to be able to work together? Fit together? Make love together? Help one another through the inevitable ups and downs of life, of love, of relationship?

THE most fundamental issue is TRUTH. Being honest with ourselves about how we feel about something. IF we can do that, then there is a chance we can be honest with the other guy. AND we need to be open to hearing HIS truth, too. His truth may NOT be what we would like... but we need to be open to hearing it and then evaluating, "Can I live with that truth?". Relationships just don't show up... they are built, created, maintained through time. They are, in fact, rather a lot of work, TBH. Doesn't mean they aren't worth all the effort... they are. But the point I'm trying to make here is that if you're being honest with yourself and with him then there is no MISTAKE you can make. Either he can handle your truth or he can't. And if he can't that says something about HIM, not you. Same works the other way around, either you can 'handle' (live with) his truth or you can't.

[Flyerboy95]

I think it is a good thing that he is interested in you and to know the reason behind your doubts. It shows that he is interested in getting to know you, and therefore interested on something on a deeper level. It is probably best not to bring it up again now if you can - focus on this guy, and try not to let these past experiences rule your expectations. Saying all this, I know exactly where you are coming from in regards to the lack of confidence, Axle hit the nail on the head, you have got to learn to love yourself a bit more. It is a very hard thing to do for sure, and something that I haven't really mastered yet either.

I do remember your original thread yeah. Sorry that guy was an arse and wasn't upfront with you that he wasn't interested. But hey, then you wouldn't have met this guy eh? . But as you say, this guy seems to be completely different, more committed to seeing you again, so, so far so good. You seem to know where you stand with him, which is all you can hope for at this stage

Yeah, I'm not good at taking compliments either. I like hearing them (who wouldn't ), but I don't know how to react. And I doubt you'll find anyone that hasn't had negative experiences in the past. Everyone has a history to make them who they are today. It seems this guy may have some insecurities too, most do, but you've got to try to not let them rule you.

And I think I said before, spam the gaming threads! Get over 50 posts, and viola, you'll have no moderating problems

Yeah, it's nice he wants to appreciate and know about my past to better know why I am the person I am today, but I think you're right in that now it's been mentioned, it's probably best not to bring it up again and focus on the future.

Yeah that's true, I'm glad it didn't go anywhere actually with the other lad, because this one seems more what I'm looking for and wanting in a relationship - I guess I'm just scared he'll lose interest like the last one did, despite positive signs initially with the last one. I really need to stop comparing the two.

Interestingly this new guy had had the same experience, the last guy he dated, who was weirdly even from the same city, also never followed up after the first date. There's a lot of things like this we have in similar, which I guess helps us better understand each other.

Yeah I like getting compliments, who doesn't? The issue with me, and always has been, that I just think 'well I don't find myself attractive, so why would anyone else.' I still heavily base my self-worth based on what other people think of me - this guy I'm dating said he used to do the same, but now values his own self-worth based on who he knows he is as a person and the good things he has to offer, rather than what others think of him. I just need to learn to do the same. All the things I need to change just seem so damn impossible, I've been trying for years...

[Flyerboy95]

The mod approval thing will go away once you have 50 posts... it is not anything you're doing or saying. It's just built into the forum system to keep trolls out. Go into the gaming forum and play one of the word games till you get 50 posts and that will be that.

As to what's going on. One suggestion I can make re his feeling awkward around your compliments is changing how you present them. For example, it is one thing to say "You are adorable," and another to say, "I find you adorable." In the latter statement, you're owning how you feel around him. You could even be more precise. I mean, what do you really mean by "adorable"? Do you want to adore him? Maybe just make it simpler... "I feel really good when I'm with you." (Or whatever is true for you.) The point being, when you own it that way, you're making a statement of how you feel, not about how he is. He may very well be adorable at times, as indeed, may you... but none of us ARE adorable. That is to say, people may find us that way, but that's how they feel in a particular moment, not how we actually ARE in some absolute sense. Does that make sense?

As for your overthinking things. Yeah... I find a lot of young guys, especially young gay ones, do this. It seems to be motivated by fear, fear of losing something, fear of doing something wrong, fear of feeling hurt or rejected. What it is for you, only you can say. But the point is, things are what they are. We are what we are. As [MENTION=23180]axle2152[/MENTION] and [MENTION=22727]Cridders88[/MENTION] are saying, self-confidence is largely a matter of self-acceptance. That isn't easy because we often don't see ourselves objectively. Just how that works will vary individual to individual. Some, for example, may have an over-inflated view of themselves or certain aspects of themselves while others have just the opposite, a devaluing of themselves and their attributes or qualities.

IDK, there just seems to be certain lessons we have to learn in life. For me what it boils down to is knowing the only way any relationship can work is through a) being honest (both with myself and the other guy) and b) giving the other guy a lot of slack. I remember, for example, when I was getting to know my first partner, David (this was a long time ago... he's been dead for over 20 years... at my age, you look at things in decades). When we were still dating we got into an argument about something. What, I no longer recall. It doesn't matter. The thing is, David was in my apartment and he started getting verbally abusive toward me. I threw him the fuck out and told him quite plainly, I wouldn't allow him (or anyone) to speak to me that way. Now, you might think THAT would have been the end of our dating. Well... it wasn't. The truth is, I liked him and I knew he liked me. But we'd hit a rough spot, disagreeing about something. That didn't in and of itself mean we were incompatible... it just meant we had an issue that needed to be worked through. So, IDK, a few days later after I'd calmed down a bit (and I hoped he had as well) I took the initiative of calling him to talk. He was surprised I did this. He apologized for being rude to me and we went on to talking about whatever the disagreement had been about.

The point I'm making here is that... it seems guys THINK that when they meet "Mr. Right" (as if there is such a thing)... it's all going to be hearts and flowers forever and ever. To me, that is just such an immature way of looking at life and relationships it just makes me want to hurl. Dig it, we're ALL human. We all have baggage. We all have problems. We all have our good points and bad, strengths and weaknesses. The question is, are we going to be able to work together? Fit together? Make love together? Help one another through the inevitable ups and downs of life, of love, of relationship?

THE most fundamental issue is TRUTH. Being honest with ourselves about how we feel about something. IF we can do that, then there is a chance we can be honest with the other guy. AND we need to be open to hearing HIS truth, too. His truth may NOT be what we would like... but we need to be open to hearing it and then evaluating, "Can I live with that truth?". Relationships just don't show up... they are built, created, maintained through time. They are, in fact, rather a lot of work, TBH. Doesn't mean they aren't worth all the effort... they are. But the point I'm trying to make here is that if you're being honest with yourself and with him then there is no MISTAKE you can make. Either he can handle your truth or he can't. And if he can't that says something about HIM, not you. Same works the other way around, either you can 'handle' (live with) his truth or you can't.

All done now after spamming the gaming threads - thanks to you and Cridders for pointing me to that

That makes complete sense. If I recall, I'd said I thought he was lovely, and that he had an adorable smile, as well as that I found his intelligence and caring personality attractive. He replied something like 'wow, that's far too much flattery ). I like your approach though, and in future I'll definitely put it across in a way which shows how I feel, rather than just stating something about him, thanks for that!

You've just made me realise something he said which I've largely overlooked. In our texting, he's made it really clear and said himself that in a relationship he would just want trust, honesty and to communicate, even the bad things. He said he'll always be honest with me so that I hopefully never have to second guess anything, and if I ever did anything that upset him he would tell me. He also said he wants me to never feel scared or unable to ask or tell him something. I overlooked just how decent that is of him to say, maybe he's thinking about this a lot deeper than I had realised, d'oh!

I think that's why we've been so interested about learning each other's passed. He's openly shared with me on that date that he's suffered with depression, and is in a much better place now. I have so so much respect for him sharing that, and to do so on a first date must mean something? Equally I've been very honest and open about my past.

Maybe this is why I'm so scared, so far he's everything I hope for and look for, it feels like I'm just waiting for something to go wrong, like it always seems to.

[Flyerboy95]

On another topic, if you guys don't mind me asking, and that is texting. So far, when we talk, it's me who initiates the conversation, usually by saying hello and asking how his day was or whatever, but once we're into conversation he really does make the effort, which can be difficult over text. Just now, I was tempted to pick up the phone and text, just saying I hope his shift at work went good today. But I stopped myself, thinking 'let him get in touch first for a change.' - do you guys think this is a dangerous or an unhealthy thing to do, to go against what is natural for myself, which is to drop him a message?

[MikeW]

Maybe this is why I'm so scared, so far he's everything I hope for and look for, it feels like I'm just waiting for something to go wrong, like it always seems to.

I've posted this before but want to share it again:



The point being you're right. Something WILL "go wrong"... indeed it must. That's the nature of life: Cycles and cycles within cycles.

So whether or not something will go wrong (or whether or not our fear that it will MAKES it go wrong... self-fulfilling prophecies and all that)... the question is how do we DEAL with that? Do we let it stop us? Do we fear the pain of loss so much that we never open our hearts? Or do we allow ourselves to learn the lessons life has to offer:



Actually, so far as I can tell [MENTION=24098]Flyerboy95[/MENTION], you're doing just fine. But your fear of losing what you have is keeping you from actually enjoying MORE Of what you do have. It's an odd quandary. A bit of a "Catch 22". Damned if you do, damned if you don't. But you know what I really think its about (not just with you but most men)? FEAR OF INTIMACY. On some deep level we fear love and fear whether or not we can love or be loved and so we set up conditions that GUARANTEE that it never happens.

We gotta learn to stop doing that. Just let it be for as long as it is and enjoy the fucking hell out of it while it lasts. Then, when life or death bring it to a close, we grieve and cleanse and work at finding our true hearts, even if they are broken.

[MikeW]

On another topic, if you guys don't mind me asking, and that is texting. So far, when we talk, it's me who initiates the conversation, usually by saying hello and asking how his day was or whatever, but once we're into conversation he really does make the effort, which can be difficult over text. Just now, I was tempted to pick up the phone and text, just saying I hope his shift at work went good today. But I stopped myself, thinking 'let him get in touch first for a change.' - do you guys think this is a dangerous or an unhealthy thing to do, to go against what is natural for myself, which is to drop him a message?

Have you told him how you feel? Something along the lines: "I don't want to be the one who always initiates texts. I start to feel like i'm bothering you or something and I don't want to do that. SO... I'm leaving the ball in your court. When you have time and inclination, I'd be happy to hear from you." .... or whatever words are true for you?

One other thing I'll say. PLEASE do not use 'texting' as a means to try and communicate anything too important. People are addicted to texting. For the most part it is a trivial medium of communication. Like post-it-notes It's fine for saying 'hi, how's it going?' or something playful, funny, maybe even sexy... but it is not a good medium for expressing how we really feel (or knowing how someone else really feels).

IMO anyway.

[Flyerboy95]

I've posted this before but want to share it again:



The point being you're right. Something WILL "go wrong"... indeed it must. That's the nature of life: Cycles and cycles within cycles.

So whether or not something will go wrong (or whether or not our fear that it will MAKES it go wrong... self-fulfilling prophecies and all that)... the question is how do we DEAL with that? Do we let it stop us? Do we fear the pain of loss so much that we never open our hearts? Or do we allow ourselves to learn the lessons life has to offer:



Actually, so far as I can tell [MENTION=24098]Flyerboy95[/MENTION], you're doing just fine. But your fear of losing what you have is keeping you from actually enjoying MORE Of what you do have. It's an odd quandary. A bit of a "Catch 22". Damned if you do, damned if you don't. But you know what I really think its about (not just with you but most men)? FEAR OF INTIMACY. On some deep level we fear love and fear whether or not we can love or be loved and so we set up conditions that GUARANTEE that it never happens.

We gotta learn to stop doing that. Just let it be for as long as it is and enjoy the fucking hell out of it while it lasts. Then, when life or death bring it to a close, we grieve and cleanse and work at finding our true hearts, even if they are broken.

You, Sir, are full of wisdom. My fear is maybe irrational, I fear losing him, when he's not even really 'mine' - I hope that doesn't come across wrong, I don't mean that in an ownership way, meaning he is mine to own, I mean, my partner, or boyfriend, whatever. I wish I could just enjoy the ride now, and overcome the hurdles when they happen, which they will, as you say.

I'm actually exited about hopefully being intimate with him. He also said he doesn't just want another friend, he wants a partner, someone he can be intimate with. It's too soon for any of that obviously, but I am looking forward to hopefully experiencing that, having not experienced it for about a year and a half now. Of course it scares me too, in the respect of 'what if he doesn't like me that way.'

[Flyerboy95]

Have you told him how you feel? Something along the lines: "I don't want to be the one who always initiates texts. I start to feel like i'm bothering you or something and I don't want to do that. SO... I'm leaving the ball in your court. When you have time and inclination, I'd be happy to hear from you." .... or whatever words are true for you?

One other thing I'll say. PLEASE do not use 'texting' as a means to try and communicate anything too important. People are addicted to texting. For the most part it is a trivial medium of communication. Like post-it-notes It's fine for saying 'hi, how's it going?' or something playful, funny, maybe even sexy... but it is not a good medium for expressing how we really feel (or knowing how someone else really feels).

IMO anyway.

Last night when he said goodnight, he said 'suppose I'll catch you tomorrow' and I said goodnight and hopefully to speak to him tomorrow (meaning today) - on reflection, I need to stop saying things like 'hopefully' - i feel it gives bad vibes out, woops. He hasn't been in touch yet today, which I guess is why I want to contact him, He'd said himself about not wanting to text me and bother me while I'm at work when we first started talking, which I said obviously I can't reply at work but that he shouldn't ever think of it as bothering me because it isn't. I don't even know what time's he's working today, he could be at work still for all i know.

The thing I worry about by leaving it up to him to get in touch today, is what if he's waiting for me to. It's always been a thing where I can never find the right middle ground when it comes to texting.

[MikeW]

...The thing I worry about by leaving it up to him to get in touch today, is what if he's waiting for me to. It's always been a thing where I can never find the right middle ground when it comes to texting.

Maybe there isn't one?

Frankly, to me, "texting" is very adolescent. You, being in your early 2os, are to be forgiven... but to me? It's the equivalent of teenagers passing notes in school ... and this "should I or shouldn't I or what does it mean or not mean????" is just kind of, IDK, weird.

ADULTS (LOL... not that I have ever truly been one) shouldn't OBSESS about silly stuff like that.

Speak your truth and trust him and trust yourself. If you want to text him, well, fuck, do it. LOL. Trust that if you get overly anxious and needing of too much reassurance and start bugging the fuck out of him he'll TELL you. The worst that could happen is he'll just block you right?

I don't mean to sound overly flippant but, seriously, you're on cloud 9 right now and freaking out. You need to take some serious deep breaths and chill, dude!