Do you care about Pride?

[Emiliano]

We obviously run in different crowds, maybe that behavior okay in NYC but here in the South its different. I dont know how many time Ive heard my friends and family say "What two faggots do in the privacy of their own home is none of my business, but when they do it in front of me then we have a problem". Ive heard that same thing said by enough straight guys that I have to believe there is a kernel of truth to it. People hate what is different and Im sorry to say but if you want acceptance in wider society, then sometimes you have to toe the line. One of the reasons I wont come out is because as soon as I do I know I'll get lumped in with those rainbow warriors in biker gear and probably get the fuck beat out of me for my trouble. Im sure you can see that.

I definitely can see that. It's not that I don't understand where you or [MENTION=24308]Piri[/MENTION] are coming from, and I'm not trying to lecture you guys or tell you how to be gay or force you to go to a parade. You guys do what you do and what makes you comfortable and safe.

If you don't like parades or crowds or men in assless pants, or two guys kissing, or suggestive dancing, or people being weird, dressing weird, then fine, I get that. It's the demonizing, the finger pointing... that's what I don't like. Especially since it's such a common move to place the blame on the most visible and often the most vulnerable members of the community.

I recognize that living in a place like NYC has given me a lot of privilege in terms of my sexuality that other people around the world don't have. And I also get that as someone who lives in a city like this, I've seen a lot of weird shit and I'm pretty much unphazed by it. So a man in a thong and a wig dancing in the street is just not as scandalous or offensive to me as it might be to someone living in Alabama or Iran.

For the people who say they don't care if people are gay, they just don't want to see it... I call their bluff. People are generally not fucking in the streets at a Pride parade like they do in the bedroom. They just want us to hide anything that might reveal we are gay. If they can't tell you're gay then of course they won't have a problem with you being gay. So think about what is actually being said in statements like that. It'll be fair to ask gay people to hide any indication of sexuality or displays of affection outside of the bedroom only after straight people are willing to first lead by example. And I don't see that happening.

I guess where I'm going here, and on the topic in general, is that I don't like seeing the less socially acceptable members of the gay community being thrown under the bus or being held responsible for why gay people aren't more broadly accepted. It's not the fault of the weird, wig wearing, leather clad, gay men at parades that gay people aren't universally accepted. If that were the case, then the years of gay men hiding in the closet and marrying women and having children and passing for straight... they would have won us all our rights and acceptance long ago.

No, the people who are to blame for why we are not accepted and why it can be so hard, many times dangerous to be gay, are the people who think that gay people should not be accepted, that it is more acceptable to make fun of us, to criminalize us, to beat us, to kill us than to just get over us and let us live our lives. That's the real problem, not a man in a dress.

I'm absolutely not saying that we all need to join hands and be bffs with every other gay person we meet. There are many sharp divisions in the gay community, we are not a monolith and bla bla bla... But when it comes to Pride, I just don't like seeing people policing eachother about how this is going to make us look to straight people.

Pride is not for straight people. It's for us. So let's stop acting like it's our responsibility to perform for them, to please them. Let's forget for five minutes that we are constantly being watched and judged by them and just have a good time for ourselves.

Pride, to me, is about being proud of who you are and celebrating that, despite living in a world that repeatedly tells you that you shouldn't be, it's about using your voice when others want you to be silent, it's about dancing in the street and having fun when others want you hidden away. It's about participating in a gathering of people who are also gay, putting your guard down, and for one day, or even just a few hours, not having that be what separates you from your peers.

And I just strongly feel that the last thing an environment like that needs are other gay people trying to earn points with straight people and make themselves look better by reminding them that they are gross, that they are perverted, that they are mentally ill and unacceptable and should just calm down, shut up, and lock themselves away behind bedroom doors.

[Doc]

I guess youre right, please forgive me. I have alot of issues including self-hate, I think if I ever let my guard down I would die; because I been hiding it for so long and Ive been up this macho persona. I dont think people like me will ever change, but I do find myself at odds with so many other gay people because Im so conservative.

[Emiliano]

I guess youre right, please forgive me. I have alot of issues including self-hate, I think if I ever let my guard down I would die; because I been hiding it for so long and Ive been up this macho persona. I dont think people like me will ever change, but I do find myself at odds with so many other gay people because Im so conservative.

Im not trying to come at you like im angry at you or that you should ask me for forgiveness. I know your situation, its not one that makes it easy for you to be gay, I know your politics, its not one that jives with a lot of other gay people. I have my own issues with a lot of gay people, parts of the culture, how we are represented, how a lot of us are overlooked and ignored. Those things can really be a hurdle in feeling connected to others, to feeling a part of the shared identity.

Internalizing homophobia / anti gay sentiments is nearly impossible to avoid when you live in a place saturated with. And I think its important to at least recognize it, to be aware of why you are thinking certain things, or feel a certain way when you see openly gay men. But its your life and you are the one responsible for looking out for yourself. And you just have to do what you can to try to make the best life you can for yourself.

[Doc]

At this point I feel like Im beyond changing, even when we see another gay person on the street and my friends make fun, I try to defend the guy by saying "they arent hurting anyone" they just make fun of me, so anymore I just laugh with them its much easier.

[Emiliano]

At this point I feel like Im beyond changing, even when we see another gay person on the street and my friends make fun, I try to defend the guy by saying "they arent hurting anyone" they just make fun of me, so anymore I just laugh with them its much easier.

I dont know what to tell you. I dont know what its like to live in a place like where you live or what its like to be in the closet. I can only imagine its very difficult and isolating.

[Piri]

Throwing more visible gays under the bus? I'm just saying we shouldn't glorify over sexualization and weirdness as part of our culture. That stuff has nothing to do with being gay, or with pride, it's just an old meme that needs to die. Is doing a princess-on-drugs impression, or showing off our butt, really the only way for us to have fun, to 'go crazy'? That's arguably the most iconic representation of the lgbt pride, and I do believe that's partly why we're still treated like sex crazed perverts. Many people don't have lots of openly gay acquaintances; the only instance when they get to see a large group of homosexuals in real life is the pride, and if they see that crazy stuff over and over it's only natural they start thinking that's how gays are. If they have a gay brother, friend, coworker, or if they know a gay actor or two who act "normally", they'll probably just think of them as unusual gay men. I also believe a parent who views gays that way would be less likely to accept their homosexual son.

I get what you're saying: we shouldn't bend to what homophobes want, because all they want is for us to disappear. We deserve the right to dance, paint our faces, sing out loud, take our shirts off like everyone else. But when we embrace bad taste and gratuitous obscenity, waving it as a flag, we're willingly spreading a precise, unpleasant picture of ourselves, which I believe does have a negative impact on our position in society. It's far from being the main source of our problems, and fixing that won't magically blow all the hatred away, but I'm positive it would be of great help. The world is not black and white: there isn't only the homophobe and the gay friendly, there are also people in the middle. That's the kind of people I'd like to bring on our side, not those who outright hate us. You know, maybe if we stop being R rated (or inappropriate for minors, however you english speaking folks call it) we might just get more support and, like it or not, we really need it. We're a weak and divided minority, we can't just go "fite me" against the majority.

I hope I've made myself clear this time. I have no problem at all with parading or showing our differences, I simply can't stand how some people think the gay pride is a special place where we must act as crazy and different as possible, putting a heavy emphasis on the stereotypes we should instead try to overcome.

[Matt608]

I think we need to remember that LGBTQ people, as a group, are very diverse. We range from deeply closeted to totally out --- from completely conservative to utterly flamboyant. And that's fine, no one is better than anyone else. Not attending Pride doesn't make me a "bad gay". Working for change with an LGBTQ organization doesn't make me a "good gay".

I'm not trying to pass for straight, I'm just being me --- I'm being who I am. I have no desire to throw anyone under the bus, except, possibly, bigots and assholes.

I went out the other night with 2 straight guys, a very "out there" gay guy and a friend who's m-f trans - and we had a great time. I mean, isn't it supposed to be that way instead of all this bickering? Making allowances for differences, and everyone just being who they are?

[Emiliano]

I think we need to remember that LGBTQ people, as a group, are very diverse. We range from deeply closeted to totally out --- from completely conservative to utterly flamboyant. And that's fine, no one is better than anyone else. Not attending Pride doesn't make me a "bad gay". Working for change with an LGBTQ organization doesn't make me a "good gay".

I'm not trying to pass for straight, I'm just being me --- I'm being who I am. I have no desire to throw anyone under the bus, except, possibly, bigots and assholes.

I went out the other night with 2 straight guys, a very "out there" gay guy and a friend who's m-f trans - and we had a great time. I mean, isn't it supposed to be that way instead of all this bickering? Making allowances for differences, and everyone just being who they are?

That's basically what I'm saying too. Outlandish people belong at Pride as much as those of us who blend in with the broader society do. I don't think we all have to like eachother - I don't hold the lgbtq community to a higher standard than I do straight people - I have learned not to, despite feeling like I should be able to, but that's for a different topic. But I do think, at least for pride, we should at least be able to share the space with eachother.

[CellarDweller]

If anything, who needs a lecture is those who compare the brave people who fought for our rights with a bunch of crazy perverts who dance almost (sometimes fully) naked and act weird for the sole purpose of having fun. The pride itself is fine, but the gratuitous displays of weirdness and obscenity need to go.

Please. I'll consider your argument about gays and "gratuitous displays of weirdness and obscenity" when I can attend Mardi Gras and Carnivalé in Rio and not see naked tits and ass everywhere, so they can get a set of beads.

[Emiliano]

Throwing more visible gays under the bus? I'm just saying we shouldn't glorify over sexualization and weirdness as part of our culture. That stuff has nothing to do with being gay, or with pride, it's just an old meme that needs to die. Is doing a princess-on-drugs impression, or showing off our butt, really the only way for us to have fun, to 'go crazy'? That's arguably the most iconic representation of the lgbt pride, and I do believe that's partly why we're still treated like sex crazed perverts. Many people don't have lots of openly gay acquaintances; the only instance when they get to see a large group of homosexuals in real life is the pride, and if they see that crazy stuff over and over it's only natural they start thinking that's how gays are. If they have a gay brother, friend, coworker, or if they know a gay actor or two who act "normally", they'll probably just think of them as unusual gay men. I also believe a parent who views gays that way would be less likely to accept their homosexual son.

I get what you're saying: we shouldn't bend to what homophobes want, because all they want is for us to disappear. We deserve the right to dance, paint our faces, sing out loud, take our shirts off like everyone else. But when we embrace bad taste and gratuitous obscenity, waving it as a flag, we're willingly spreading a precise, unpleasant picture of ourselves, which I believe does have a negative impact on our position in society. It's far from being the main source of our problems, and fixing that won't magically blow all the hatred away, but I'm positive it would be of great help. The world is not black and white: there isn't only the homophobe and the gay friendly, there are also people in the middle. That's the kind of people I'd like to bring on our side, not those who outright hate us. You know, maybe if we stop being R rated (or inappropriate for minors, however you english speaking folks call it) we might just get more support and, like it or not, we really need it. We're a weak and divided minority, we can't just go "fite me" against the majority.

I hope I've made myself clear this time. I have no problem at all with parading or showing our differences, I simply can't stand how some people think the gay pride is a special place where we must act as crazy and different as possible, putting a heavy emphasis on the stereotypes we should instead try to overcome.

I'll try to clarify too - when I brought up internalized homophobia, I was speaking directly to Doc, who had confided he feels that way, and is someone that I have spoken to before about his situation and some of the challenges he faces. I did not mean to imply that it is something you personally are struggling with, or anyone else in this thread.

And I'll admit that saying that some of you might be more comfortable at a Shame parade than a Pride parade is a bitchy thing to say, but sometimes I am a bitchy person. Especially when my patience runs thin. And reading a similar sentiment over and over, plus hearing that lots of other places offline and online too, my patience with it is getting thin. But even with saying that, I didn't really intend to say that any of you were ashamed of being gay... more that you were ashamed of being associated with other gay people. But I apologize if you felt I was attacking how you or anyone else on here expresses or feels about your/their own sexualities.

I agree with you that we have to counteract the wild stereotypes, I just don't think we should do that by limiting the representations of gay people put out there, but rather by broadening them. That's part of why I think it's important people who can, do come out. The more diversity of gay men that straight people see, the more they can understand we are not all one way. And it is about real life examples, not just ones in the media. Id like to think that through the work I do and how I conduct myself I am acting as a positive example of a gay man, among other identities that people might stereotype me by.

I'm not sure where you are from, and I can only speak from the perspective of an American, but I feel like at least here, in recent years, representations of gay people are growing in the media. It's not perfect or even satisfying, but it is baby steps in the right direction, to me. I have a hard time believing that the average American who consumes pop culture, has access to tv or internet, is only being exposed to gay people through carefully selected images of the most wildestly behaved people at Pride parades. Unless every time they encounter a gay character they change the channel or turn off their laptops.

And to expand on something right there - I have been to the NYC Pride, I have friends who go every year. I can tell you first hand - not everyone is going crazy or treats it like a public orgy. Families are present and march in it, many different groups are represented there, some are there strictly to party, some are there with an activist purpose.

But that it is just the most socially unacceptable, most scandalous images that make it out to deep Alabama and scandalizes some old man who has never known an openly gay person in his life is not by accident. There is a motive behind why certain images are reproduced and others ignored. Not only do we as gay men lack diverse representation, what happens as Pride parades does too. And there are reasons for both.

So again, I will apologize if you feel anything I said was meant to be a personal attack on you. I'm really not trying to be a dick or argumentative or disrespectful. But I'm not going to back down on saying that the people who do treat pride as an opportunity to go all out and be crazy and provocative should continue to have a place there, and that we should not blame them for how some straight people view gays as a whole. When it comes to respectability politics, whether about race or sexuality or anything else, I think it's bullshit, because whether or not it is an actual way to gain "acceptance", I don't believe the means justify the end.