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Gays againts gays.
Hello everyone.

Some history: I am a 30 year old gay male. I have lived in both cities and rural areas. I was in the military and am currently in a Master’s program.

I wanted to start a discussion here because no one is able to do it in person. The content addresses the many posts in "Need your advice" but I don't want advice. I want to see if maybe I am not alone or that perhaps I am wrong. I want a debate on the matter.

Gay persons have a problem and we need help. Gay people tolerate a lot of injustice in the world. It’s not fair to be treated a certain way because of something you can’t control. I’m thankful, though, that in many ways the treatment of gays, at least in the West, is getting better. How gay people are treated by straights isn’t what I want to address. We need to address how gays are treating other gays. Here I’ll speak about gay men, as I haven’t any experience being a lesbian.

Over the last decade I’ve had the fortune and misfortune to meet many people. I’ve come to know exceedingly awesome and respectable persons both gay and straight. Sadly, most of the respectable ones are straight. I’ve always been one to watch people and what they do and I’ve noted a significant character deficit in gay men. It’s possible that I am just unlucky and that I only come across unrespectable people by chance. I don’t think that’s the case though; I think gay men never learned to be “men.” That is, by lacking male figures in their lives— besides other, already tainted gay men —in whom they could confide about relationships, gay men haven’t learned about honesty or respect, or fidelity, among other things. I would like to say that this problem exists in a select few, and that it’s uncommon and not worthy of attention. It is not, however, a few gay men that have this problem. It’s 99.9% of them. I have found that even those who look, act, and most importantly talk the part of a respectable person are the complete opposite. I don’t go on about these problems because I have been hurt in relationships, though that’s certainly what made me take first notice. People I thought were friends behaved in similarly, with dishonesty and other unsavory ways.

I'm a behavioral scientist. I am well aware of “why” these things happen. Gay men lie without remorse because they did so when younger to avoid or remove aversive events. They lied about being gay to avoid ridicule. They pretended to be straight so they would fit it. They left their hometowns for the city so they could “be who they are” and became part of a culture that engenders less-than-respectable behavior in young gay men. The new and exciting environment is full of fun they’d never had, sex on the fly without connection, drug use and superficiality. This, of course, doesn’t happen to everyone but it’s more common than not.

What I mentioned isn’t new. It’s not even shocking to most. We’ve accepted it as the way things are. It’s not healthy, but there’s a worse problem that stems from the same prior deceptions that is of more concern. If you are part of the gay lifestyle, you come to expect certain ways and if you don’t like them you can avoid them. With the other issue, you don’t even see it coming.

I’m talking about the internet and faceless communication. If a man doesn’t want to be part of the “gay community” then they don’t have to be. Guys are easy to find online. The magnitude of what straight people go through because of the internet and pornography is exacerbated by being gay. It’s easy to move from one person to the next quickly in our new electronic world. We can quickly block people online of whom we tire and find replacements. The problem lies, though, in how this has come to affect life offline.
Gay men want the same things everyone else does: love, stability, and the like— or so I hear. They form relationships, both platonic and romantic, and then encounter a problem caused by their history of quick novelty from the history of “being gay” and the internet/wireless communication. Instead of facing a problem in the relationship, likely because they’ve never had the social pressure to man up, they resort to the quick fix of ignore-and-find-elsewhere. It’s so easy to do. Ignore your friend or partner and head online; it’s as anonymous as you’d like, and if anyone asks about what you’re doing then you can clear the browser or text messages.

I want to say that maturity has a role and that people grow out of these things but that’s not true. We need a solution and we need a public one. We’ve spent so much time convincing the rest of the world that we’re not horrible, that we’ve allowed ourselves and others to in fact become dishonorable, dishonest, and disrespectful without question; if we question what’s going on we’re called bitter, or close-minded, and told that we should accept people for “who they are.”

“Who they are” only goes so far. I agree that being gay isn’t changeable, but we can change the rest.

I could go on but won’t.

Please respond: Tell me I’m wrong or right. Tell me why. Most importantly, tell me how we can fix this so future generations don’t have to suffer the trauma that we have.

I think you have been unlucky, as many of my friends on this forum are respectible MEN.

I beleave that its not just gay people who "Never learn to (Grow up)". I beleave its more 40% of the population in general, and i beleave the only reason you have more straight friends, is because the chances of finding a straight guy who has grown up is higher.

But if what you say is true, and i am blissfully unaware.
I'd say.....its all down to the higher mental health problems in the gay population.
But it still doesn't feel like its a good enough answer/excuse for their behavior........
Silly Sarcastic So-and-so

Wow, thats a big brush you must have there to tar each an every one of us with!

It sounds to me like you have met the wrong kind of people, and maybe you need to look inwardly on that matter as its often the case that people who always meet a certain type of person, be it friends or partners, usually are doing so through some subconscious choice.

I will agree that there are many gay men who act in the ways you describe, however its far from all of them, or the 99.9% you mention and I think if this were compared with a real sample of straight men there would be parity.

How can you conclude that gay men have grown up lacking male figures in their life? I am sure there are those who have had little male influence, and those who have grown up with a house full of males.

Gay men lie without remorse? Really? I know so many people who while growing up and coming to terms with their sexuality were in pieces due to the fact they had to hide the truth from their loved ones until they were able to share with them.

On the surface your post appears to be either a thinly disguised anti-gay posting, or the result of some inner annoyance at meeting the wrong guys. Or is this more a behavioural science project? It is dangerous to generalise about any group of people unless there is clear evidence to demonstrate your theory rather than relying on a string of theories and assumptions, largely based on (it seems) ones own personal experiences.

In conclusion, there are good and bad people in all groups/categories/classifications (or whatever term you prefer) and it would be more beneficial to work out the reasons for the differences than to generalise.

Why? Lack of a good gay role model as a child. Invalidating childhood because role models were straight.

How to fix? Good quality gay role models for children.

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk

041779 Wrote:I'm a behavioral scientist.

041779 Wrote:It is not, however, a few gay men that have this problem. It’s 99.9% of them.

It concerns me that someone who describes himself as a behavioural scientist is prepared to make such broad-brush assertions.

Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans.

I am going to suggest to you to really check yourself out and I mean that sincerely with no malice. As a behavioral scientist I am sure you are aware of the homophobic element who protest loudly because they are homosexuals themselves and cannot come to terms with it(Ted Haggard is the best example but others are SO EASY to find)....or one can say "Thou Doth Protest Too Much"

I was once told by someone who I respected more than I can say that what I didn't like outside myself was often (but not always) a reflection of what I didn't like inside myself that for one reason or another I hadn't come to terms with...perhaps because I was in denial or wasn't aware of it. I knew this was correct when I heard it but applying it has been difficult at times...it turns out it has been my most valuable tool.

I knew it was a great tool when I heard really jealous people talking about what their lover was doing because I knew that they were projecting their own thoughts and feelings on their lovers and assuming the other person did or thought about the same things they did...and since they were incapable of coming to terms with their own inconsistencies they insisted it was the other person...perhaps they had alot of purist or religious influences early on that brought alot of guilt and shame and created a moral paradox within themselves because they allowed other people to define morality for them... albeit unwillingly?...you sound like you might have the same problem and it is common...and you are worth the time it takes to overcome this problem. It is called "PROJECTION" and it is more common today than it has ever been...maybe even at a critical level and I think a behavioral scientist who would take an interest in this phenomenon and address it as a growing problem in society would be undertaking a worthy subject.

Start with being honorable yourself...if you do notice dishonorable behavior in other people...look in the mirror because painting people with such a broad brush is also dishonorable...that is easy for me to see...there is so much more only you can see. The trick is to want to overcome this behavior...if you don't want to do it you wont. I can also easily see that you are extremely disrespectful yourself and probably are unaware of it as you want to attack this outside yourself with such fervor. Good Luck...sincerely...you can overcome this if you want to..

social pressure to man up

Do you know what a talking point is? This is the new tea party buzz word/phrase or talking point...you might want to consider where you are getting your "data" and information from and how much influence the media has on you. Do you watch Fox News alot?

I didn’t like the statement the gay men “never learned to be men” being a man doesn’t take education it only takes XY chromosomes. Traits like honesty, respect and fidelity are not traits that only “men” learn to possess, but traits that all humans develop.

To throw out numbers like 99.9% is irresponsible, this 99.9% number is completely unfounded and as no basis in fact. In fact that number only has base in personal opinion, as someone who claims to be a behavioural scientist you should know that personal opinion is not fact, and maybe you should go do a real study and get some real numbers be you decide to slander your gay brothers or sisters.

fredv3b Wrote:It concerns me that someone who describes himself as a behavioural scientist is prepared to make such broad-brush assertions.
I was going to raise that exact point, Fred. Surely, 04, any scientist would need to be a bit more careful bandying statistics around? 99.9% is one of those figures that one knows cannot possibly be accurate. Wink

What you write is not my experience, but I have never carried out a verifiable study. Although British and American cultures are very different in many respects, I would be surprised if it could be proven that pretty much all men behave as you describe. What concerns me even more though is that you seem to be suggesting there is some mileage in the homophobic ex-gay line that our "condition" is caused, or at least exacerbated, by the absence of a significant male role-model. I have to refute that given the lack of evidence. I assume you are using words like "tainted" to stimulate debate? Part of me wants to feel insulted, but I just feel rather sad that you seem to be so jaded. Strangely, as a gay man, I don't feel in the least tainted . Having tried to live the lie of a straight life, being out and unafraid to show it is very liberating and healing.

All youngsters these days carry out many of their social interactions online. I would be surprised though if it could be proven that these interactions were more harmful than staying at home and just watching the television which is what people who are not comfortable "joining-in" may have done before the internet reached its present level of sophistication.

Now here's a report with a few researched stats ...

So you think gay men are promiscuous? | Patrick Strudwick | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

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