Nambla

[eastofeden]

And you are right, homosexuality does not harm people. And neither does pedophilia. One's thoughts do no harm another person.

Well...I have to ask you this. There are children all over the world who are exploited and used in pornography to satisfy the sexual indulgences of the pedophile...how can this be right...it does harm children and they are defenseless.

Another thing that has always creeped me out...I have seen alot of Pedophiles in the Priesthood and it also seems to be an acceptable practice in the Islam Countries in the Middle East yet both of these groups are horrendous toward gay people...even calling for death in many instances. I have always wondered how these actions that harm children are acceptable in their eyes from themselves and from each other yet two CONSENTING ADULTS who truly DO NOT harm anyone are the object of their scorn!

I have always considered sexual practices that do not include Consenting Adult Humans (Rape//Child Molesting/Necrophilia//Bestiality) as acts of POWER and CONTROL...and the men I have seen who have these tendencies reek of the need to control everything...could this be the basis for these sexual tendencies?

As for the other sexual thoughts/practices not being a choice...that is a new concept for me and I have to wrap my mind around it...I initially see yours as a valid point but something is amiss for me...I will need to think about it...I thank you for not leaving the discussion because I would really like to learn something if possible.

[Synaesthete]

I am gonna do a turn on some of my arguement because I got quited heated at the idea of an organisation of supposedly mature, maybe even intelligent men, running an organisation to justify something they refer to as "man/boy love"... I got carried away and went off on a rant that I did not think about the whole picture.

I'd like to thank Esruc for the reminder that some act on their desires and some possess a greater awareness and self-control and thus do not act on their desires.

I am reminded of a teenager I know who has severe learning difficulties - this person was abused as a child and now this person can be seen staring at much younger children. So I would challenge OrphanPip on his statement of "some people are merely dangerous and deserve to be stigmatized". This vulnerable young person, whose mind is challenged with learning difficulties and abuse and, in other situations, is a lovely person, very nervous, and struggles (but tries) to understand and to connect to theirself, the people and the world around them....... how could we stigmatize this person more than they already are?

Some people have ill thoughts... but no one has a perfect mind. Let ye who is without sin cast the first stone. No I am not comparing us all to pedophiles, but perhaps society should get off its high horse before jumping so quickly to condemn someone who is admitting to ill thoughts and thus seeking help. A negative characteristic that humanity possesses is self righteousness. It may be pipe dream, but it needn't be.

[Synaesthete]

As for the other sexual thoughts/practices not being a choice.

I think you misunderstand. I think what he was trying to say was that having the FEELING of sexual desire for a child is not a choice. Much the same that YOU, eastofeden, having a sexual desire for a man is not a choice.

However, what you think and what you do about it IS a choice. He is saying that you cannot control how you feel, but you can control your thoughts and your actions.

[Sil]

On the other side of your argument, I think it is entirely irrelevant whether homosexuality is a choice or not. This focus on choice is a ridiculous waste of time, homosexuality doesn't harm people and involves consenting individuals, end of story.

And you are right, homosexuality does not harm people. And neither does pedophilia. One's thoughts do no harm another person.

Okay, I'm just gonna dive right in here -

thoughts are expressions of desire, and desires will eventulaly become manifest. When you're talking about infringing on the rights of a person who is not emotionally mature enough to make decisions like these, you are imposing sex upon them and only taking what you desire in the name of 'love'. You may understand your reasoning for these actions, but the child or victim will not.

Children should not be having sex, of this we are clear, unless it is teenage experimentation with other children which is both healthy and natural to some extent. Society is clear on this. To justify a grown man or woman's impositions on a minor as being something that is misunderstood is completely false; healthy mature adults are aware of desire and its implications, of its emotional resonance and impact. Yet they would choose to override this knowledge because of a latent desire. You are taking the forbidden fruit because it is forbidden, then backing these ideas with a concept of 'mutual' love.

South Park put it best - "you f*ck children" .... not objects, or the same sex... innocent living things with naievety in almost aspect of their lives, and you are writing their childhood for them and ripping them away from it without their understanding because you cannot form a relationship with a mature adult. They suffer for your problem.

I find the comparison to homosexuality quite insulting, and hope this comparison is never made in further debate. Acceptance is a term that can be applied to ideas as moral viewpoints change through history, and no length of time will ever make sex with minors become morally or socially acceptable. Organisations like this (sadly) do have the right to exist under freedom of speech, but the distancing from reality in this organisation is quite frightening.

[eastofeden]

I think you misunderstand. I think what he was trying to say was that having the FEELING of sexual desire for a child is not a choice. Much the same that YOU, eastofeden, having a sexual desire for a man is not a choice.

However, what you think and what you do about it IS a choice. He is saying that you cannot control how you feel, but you can control your thoughts and your actions.

I think I can accept this but I still have questions (I always have questions....endless really}....and I have to think about my next question because I have heard homophobes compare homosexuality to pedophilia, necrophilia, bestiality and even murder...and IF...and I use the word "IF" cautiously...the common bond is lack of choice to how we feel...then these preachers and homophobes are correct.

The obvious difference of course is in action but then again you hear the preachers and religious folk with their usual "hate the sin..not the sinner" and "as long as you don't act on your feelings (homosexuality) then you have not sinned" and I reject both of these as I reject the Bible.

I think I would need to further understand why it is not a choice to feel this way...I want to believe it is conditioning of some sort but then again that is what people used to say about gay people before psychology "legitimized" it.

Very interesting concepts though...things I had never thought about and I appreciate any opportunity to expand my mind and evolve my thinking.

I know I will never approve of the actions because children are supposed to be nurtured not exploited and raped..that is not negotiable to me at all.

[Synaesthete]

Can we just acknowledge something here - not ONE person here is commending, accepting or approving of sex with children. Not one person.

And it is down to our individual selves to work out the difference between practicing homosexuality and practicing pedophilia - which is right and which is not.

If homosexuality is the same as pedophilia etc. in the sense that it is not a choice... then it is all the same as heterosexuality too... in that it is not a choice. Unless these things are a choice... are they?

[fredv3b]

thoughts are expressions of desire, and desires will eventulaly become manifest.

I am sorry, I am not sure what you are saying here?

[eastofeden]

And it is down to our individual selves to work out the difference between practicing homosexuality and practicing pedophilia - which is right and which is not.

I am not sure I agree with this because if the pedophile works it out to act on molesting children it is quite different in my mind than two consenting adults...

If homosexuality is the same as pedophilia etc. in the sense that it is not a choice... then it is all the same as heterosexuality too... in that it is not a choice. Unless these things are a choice... are they?

That is the million dollar question...very good point about heterosexuality as well. I am still not sure what I think...but these are interesting points to consider.

[eastofeden]

Are anyone else's posts being moderated now? I do not remember this happening in any of my other posts, but the last one I did won't be posted until approved by a moderator.

I am not sure how the moderation works...I have had that message myself in the past...not sure why...I know it happens automatcally sometimes but for what reason?...I don't have a clue

[Synaesthete]

I am not sure I agree with this because if the pedophile works it out to act on molesting children it is quite different in my mind than two consenting adults...

Deep down inside, hopefully, a pedophile would know that what they are doing is wrong. The next question is, do they care enough to control themselves?