How do young people view the future?

[AlephNull]

My opinions are my opinions, there is no right and there is no wrong....MY OPINIONS.

To respond to an opinion, which pretty much was a personal attack is just plain wrong.

My opinions and comments are about America...the country, not America the people. I see American citizen as much a victim of Global politics as any other citizens under such oppressive administrations, Australia included.

My comments about the USA going bankrupt is simple economics. The world wouldn't follow suit, the world would be faced with new challenges and forced to do things differently.

It never takes being a nasty peice of work to get a point across, the only point you did get across is you are nasty.

I'm not the slightest bit offended, because unlike you I don't live in a fantasy world where everything is OK and my governement is honest and doing the right thing for me. I at no point aimed any of my comments at any single person, just the institutions that are telling you that 'Everything is fine and dandy', you on the other hand have lowered the shots.

Okay... Listen...

1) Nations are just like people. No person is perfect. Now we don't go around constantly reminding each other of our shortcomings do we? Ofcourse not. That would be obnoxious and would accomplish nothing. So why would you do the same for an entire nation or even its government?

2) You can go anywhere on the internet these days and find the same old tired criticisms of the US. Some are valid, some are not valid. Most are filled with one cheesy form of self-righteous indignation or another. And its so obvious what its all about. Being pissed off at the United States government is the "cool thing" these days. You get to sit on your podium and act like your oh-so-smart and have a "holier than" attitude. But its blatantly puffery born of the impulse to be contrarian. No one wants to hear it here.

3) Opinions can be wrong. Your opinion is that the world economy would not suffer greatly from the lose of the US, other people believe it would. Now lets fast forward in history to the point in time where the US does collapse. When it does one of two things will happen. The world economy will suffer greatly or it won't and whether or not it does will either prove your opinion wrong or right. Some opinions (like the ones about future outcomes) can be wrong or they can be right, you just don't know at the time.

4) No one here is a blind sheep who believes everything their government says.

[dfiant]

I have absoluetly no criticism of the people of the USA, I am critical of the admins, and not only the USA. What country free-loads ofy its own people with the worlds biggest Carbon Tax and is conning it's citizens that Carbon is actually a pollutant.

I seriously do not believe that the collapse of the US economy would be the 'be all and end all' of world economics, it's not going to happen anyway because it is no longer a US economoy, it is a GLOBAL economy.

I'm sorry that you seem to sensitive, but when it comes to opinions, there ARE NO right or wrong....there is agree and disagree, and it bothers me none either way.

The fascinating thing about opinions is they change, it doesn't mean that a previous opinion was right or wrong, it is just as other thoughts, ideas and evidence comes to the foray opinions do change.

So why attack someone because their opinion is different to yours?

Way too sensitive and issue and I will keep my opinions to myself in the future.

Lets do freedom of speech the US way hey

[cloud999]

My signature is a picture from an American band called Anti-Flag, who ironically are anti-american.

Ironically? You wouldn't know, but it seems 20% of the electorate (Obama's base) continually apologize for being American. This is largely why Obama spent the first year of his presidency personally apologizing to every country we've ever fought...even Germany.

And to quote the words of Jello Biafra 'War means money' - so who exactly is profiting from war?

Australia, if you consider that the average Australian makes 10x more money than the average Indonesian. Using land you wrongfully stole from aboriginals at gunpoint.

Minor details, I know.

[cloud999]

The fascinating thing about opinions is they change, it doesn't mean that a previous opinion was right or wrong, it is just as other thoughts, ideas and evidence comes to the foray opinions do change.

So why attack someone because their opinion is different to yours?

Because opinions have consequences. Consequences that shape our world. And these consequences effectively make opinions right or wrong. The more power you have, the more your opinions matter.

This is why, for example, certain "personal opinions" can get one tortured and killed in China. As the most recent recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize is learning the hard way.


My ability to denounce your opinion, and thus elevate my judgment above yours, is critical to my ability to achieve. If no opinion is right or wrong, it is impossible to determine a course of action in a chaotic world.

[Pix]

It looks to me like dfiant was talking about his views of what the future happens to be like based mostly on economics, and just because his views are critical of the US Government (just like a great many Americans on both the Left and the Right, including plenty of mainstream liberals and conservatives) and the importance of our economy (at least to Australia) doesn't mean he should keep quiet while others give their views, especially as this is in the Debates forum. (I don't look at all threads and can't speak for all other posts Inchante refers to.)

I'm an American myself and I wasn't the least bit offended. I'm not saying I was convinced (I just don't know), but his posts (at least those I've seen, including on this thread) haven't bothered me at all.

Oh, and I don't plan to answer this thread myself because I don't really know but I imagine all kinds of things, from transhumanist visions and dark scifi nightmares. I just plan to be flexible and roll with the punches as best I can. :tongue:

[Pix]

This is largely why Obama spent the first year of his presidency personally apologizing to every country we've ever fought...even Germany

I didn't know that. There's so much BS spread about Obama in endless emails hoaxes, FOX misinformation and the like that I find myself skeptical. But I've found his speech in Berlin on YT and plan to watch it either tonight or tomorrow.

Btw, I'm not a fan of President Obama. While he has pleasantly surprised me (which was easy to do as I had such low expectations of him), I could go on about what I view as the flaws of his presidency. However, so much said about how bad Obama is just doesn't pan out so it's hard for me to just accept everything I hear about him anymore.

In any case I know President Obama has also praised the United States repeatedly (including in a speech where he was condemned for apologizing for the USA which just struck me as twisting his words around and taking them out of context).

ETA: I just listened to the entire speech in Berlin and it was extremely patriotic. There was a few seconds where President Obama said the USA had made its share of mistakes and was not perfect, but he instantly went back to praising the USA even stronger than before. He also praised NATO and the victory against Communism and promotes a victory against terrorism as well. And checking the right wing blogs again I found that it did refer to those few seconds, as shared here:

http://kelblogg.blogspot.com/2008/07/oba...erica.html

It was, as happens all too often when right wing blogs report on President Obama, misleading in the extreme. Here is the speech in its entirety:




After seeing that I reject that blog's claim (and all the other right wing blogs making the same claim) and see my skepticism was justified. President Obama simply did not apologize to Germany for the USA.

[dfiant]

And these consequences effectively make opinions right or wrong.

Please stop bringing right and wrong into this. There is absolutely no right or no wrong (effectively or not) in opinions, personal or otherwise. It is decisions made on the basis of opinions, inform or uniformed, that are right or wrong...but that is not the nature of this discussion.

This is where conflict arises. You argree or disagree with an opinion, but always respect peoples opinions weather you agree or not.

Stop flaming people because of their opinions, this is just plain wrong.

And as far as the aborigines comment goes, 99% of Australians would agree 100% with your comments, they are valid....but don't blame me for living on the land that was stolen over 200 years ago, I had nothing to do with that as you had nothing to do with displacing Navajo Indians.

And what exactly does the fact Australian wages are 10x that of Indonesians? Wouldn't that be an Indonesian problem?

[Aester]

Australia, if you consider that the average Australian makes 10x more money than the average Indonesian. Using land you wrongfully stole from aboriginals at gunpoint.

Minor details, I know.

Pardon me sir but i found that quite hilarious, isn't the WHOLE America stolen land from the native American 'Indians', not just south or north, whole. And haven't they been and still are at many places still an outcast people? Wasn't the Iroquois and Sioux tribes pushed of and almost extinct at some point? The Aztec tribe sure is and many other of the Nahuatl speaking ones.

[Aester]

Right or wrong, as good or bad, are created by man, just like the clock, an innovation. Something wrong and bad can be good and right in someones eyes. As an animal, who says it has the right to kill a lesser animal to feed? It is only doing what it is suppose to survive

[Inchante]

Sorry, I was away for the weekend and could not continue the conversation. Now that I am back, I will try and address the main points.

My opinions are my opinions, there is no right and there is no wrong....MY OPINIONS.

I don’t know where the notion that an opinion is not subject to accuracy comes from. It must be another false “opinion”, as opinions must stem from a premise. If the premise or premises are false, then one will arrive at a false opinion. So, when dfiant claims that the United States economy “is like the mouse that roars”, it is fair to assume that (unless dfiant is operating on an insectile scale) he began his argument with a false premise, since—as Cloud999—points out, the U.S. economy makes up just under a quarter of the world’s economy while only containing 4.5% of the world’s population. Yet, dfiant uses another false premise to form his opinion, that the bankruptcy of the U.S. Government (by the way, as a percentage of GDP, Australia has more national debt than the United States) would only impact the rest of the world through unpaid loans. But, the United States is the largest consumer nation in the world. So, in addition to losing 9+trillion dollars, China would also stand to lose more than 18% of its export business. Now, referring back to Cloud999’s information, we would see that the world’s second largest national economy would have a loss of 155% of its GDP (that is larger than the U.S. deficit to GDP ratio) compounded with an 18% loss of export revenue. As one can see with just one nation, the bankruptcy of the United States quickly becomes more than a “blip on the economic scale”, and as one can see, opinions based on a false premises can be . . . wrong.

It never takes being a nasty peice of work to get a point across, the only point you did get across is you are nasty.

If your object is to hold a mirror up to the face of a person who is offensive, you must then be prepared to offend, and offend I did, otherwise you would not have resorted to personal insults. (I’ll never understand why people think that putting “…Oh, well” at the end of a statement erases both the tone and the content of everything that preceded it. It is much like the child who denies he’s been in the cookie jar when his face and hands are covered in chocolate.) However, you will find that nothing in my message is directed at dfiant as an individual at all. The same cannot be said for dfiant, though I doubt anything will be done, as he is the moderator.

Speaking of the offence, yes, difiant’s insinuation that the United States is a war profiteer is offensive, especially since the United States has spent more in the Middle East then it can ever hope to get back and also happens to be the first known nation to remove punitive reparations in war (a.k.a. extorsion, see Woodrow Willson’s 14 Points). In addition, the image he proudly puts under each of his comments is offensive to many of us from the United States. I’m sorry, but one cannot deny the fact that one’s home forms a part of one’s identity, as much as one’s sexuality forms a part of one’s identity, and we all rail against those who bully based on sexuality. All I'm saying is that every-once-in-a-while I would like to come on to gay speak and not have every third post be America bashing. I like everything about the forum but that.

unlike you I don't live in a fantasy world where everything is OK and my governement is honest and doing the right thing for me.

This is a rather baseless assumption. Nothing in any of my posts would indicate that I “live in a fantasy world where my government is honest and doing the right thing”. For some reason there is this tendency among all, no matter what part of the political spectrum they are on (and I am as often ashamed of the people on the left with me as the people on the right), to see the world in dichotomies: “If you don’t think A, B, and C you must believe X,Y, and Z, and that makes you an idiot”. . . no, that makes the person who can only see two sides of an issue and no in-betweens an idiot.

Frankly, I don’t mind if people want to express their frustration at something my country does or has done, but I would ask for the courtesy of having that expression be well thought out, to be accurate and factual, to include some insight into how the world actually functions. I would also ask, that you might . . . every-once-in-a-while, offer something similar about another country, as the United States is not by a long, long, long way the only country with problems. Indeed, many countries have far worse issues and have done and do far worse things. Here is to hopping for better understanding.:biggrin: