OrphanPip Wrote:Just to nit pick, Americans did not invent free verse, although Whitman could be credited with popularizing it amongst American Modernists. Free verse is as old as structured verse, you can find examples of it in the Bible.
LoL, very interesting observation, I wasn’t aware of earlier texts incorporating free verse. I took the opportunity to look it up. There are, indeed, some really great examples. Yes, it seems that Whitman was responsible for popularizing it in the English language, though it doesn’t seem like it was popular in any modern language prior to his use, and it doesn’t seem like it was really an actual style, but something dabbled with that remained mired in the aether.
http://books.google.com/books?id=6N4IZIj...ew&f=false
OrphanPip Wrote:Slam poetry isn't much of an achievement, and I don't think it actually differs from performance poetry, which has roots in the troubadour poetry of Southern France or the ballad poetry of Enlightenment Europe.
Slam poetry is a street form of poetry and has more in common with the origins and style of Rap than it does with French troubadours or English Balladeers. I am not particularly fond of it myself, as it tends toward politics, and a very narrow and simplistic understanding of politics at that. Though, it is a cultural product, which is why I listed it. With only a few exceptions, I’m not that fond of Country or Rap either and I’ve never liked oysters that much.
http://www.slampapi.com/new_site/background.htm
OrphanPip Wrote:Beat poetry certainly has its roots in an American movement, however it never went outside of Ameriica and no one really pays attention to it except Americans.
It is a wonder. One would think a poem like “America” would be right up a person like dfiant’s alley. Though, it doesn’t seem to do well across the language barrier. A German friend of mine took Ginsburg’s reading as literal and not tongue-in-cheek. You might also look on the quote I have from an article below, which mentions the Beat Poet’s influence beyond the United States.
OrphanPip Wrote:Confessional poetry is certainly an American movement, although like the others, the form is older than the school that gave it a particular name.
It always takes a movement to bring a vague idea out of the aether and make it tangible. That is how many new things come to us.
OrphanPip Wrote:Although, it seems a bit odd to claim a new version of pre-existing movements.
Really? So the Classical Period and the Neo-Classical period are actually the same? So, Romans on the Palatine hill were going around preaching equality to the Plebeians? And Socrates was not sentenced to death for his liberal use of speech, but some other infraction? No, a return to certain themes of a period and movement does not make it the same, it is an epistemic impossibility. We are all subject to our own specific socio-temporal-locus, though we might look to the past for inspiration, it will never be the same. It seems a bit odd to think otherwise. The purpose of revisiting a movement has very much to do with having a new vision for something once discarded.
OrphanPip Wrote:Of course, modern mysteries owe as much to Agatha Christie as they do to Raymond Chandler.
From what I have seen, critics typically point to Poe, funny you didn’t mention him considering detective Auguste C. Dupin, the main character in "The Murders in the Rue Morgue", “The Mystery of Marie Roget”, and “The Purloined Letter”.
http://cco.cambridge.org/extract?id=ccol...199377A003
OrphanPip Wrote:Personally, I think Americans should look to their artists for expressions of American identities and experiences, rather than universal contributions to some conception of art as a progressive entity that we add innovations to. We fall into a trap when we try to say what America has done for world literature, because in the grand scheme of things literatures have very little influence outside their own generative culture. Who is reading American literature? The obvious answer is Americans, and that is why Americans seem to get this inflated sense of the worth.
I think that they do given the mythos surrounding "The Great American Novel", attempts at which have proven rather popular and influential internationally.
I have a private notion, nothing really solid ,but one I’ve been playing with for a while. I think the reason Common Wealth Countries that stem mainly from colonialism produced so little of their own culturally has to do with the fact that they really never had a political, and therefore, cultural break from Great Britain. Don’t get me wrong, Canada and Australia do not have a British culture at all. They have a derivation of it, as America does in part, but I think the fact that they never deliberately sought an individual, national identity independent of Great Britain, has caused a somewhat stunted culture in each.
Thank you for the interesting discussion. Here are some additional references to elaborate on points made above.
The Great American Novel discussed on France 24:
See 3:02 to 9:06-- http://www.france24.com/en/20100826-the-...jackson%20
Article on the British Poetry Revival:
“If the Movement poets looked to Thomas Hardy as a poetic model, the poets associated with the British Poetry Revival were more likely to look to modernist models, such as the American poets Ezra Pound and William Carlos Williams and British figures such as David Jones, Basil Bunting and Hugh MacDiarmid. Although these major British poets had effectively been written out of official histories of 20th century British poetry, by the beginning of the 1960s a number of younger poets were starting to explore poetic possibilities that the older writers had opened up.
These poets included Roy Fisher, Gael Turnbull, Ian Hamilton Finlay, Bob Cobbing, Jeff Nuttall, Tom Raworth, Michael Horovitz, Eric Mottram, Peter Finch, Edwin Morgan, Jim Burns, Elaine Feinstein, Lee Harwood and Christopher Logue. Many of these poets joined Allen Ginsberg and an audience of 7,000 people at the Albert Hall International Poetry Incarnation on 11 June 1965 to create what was, effectively, the first British happening.
These poets provided a wide range of modes and models of how modernism could be integrated into British poetry. Fisher, also a professional jazz pianist, applied the lessons of William Carlos Williams' Paterson to his native Birmingham in his long poem City. Turnbull, who spent some time in the U. S., was also influenced by Williams. His fellow Scots Morgan and Finlay both worked with found, sound and visual poetry. Mottram, Nuttall, Horovitz and Burns were all close to the Beat generation writers. Mottram and Raworth were also influenced by the Black Mountain poets while Raworth and Harwood shared an interest in the poets of the New York School.”
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Pix Wrote:I don't doubt it, and I have friends who are strongly liberal or conservative (and miscellaneous) that I feel comfortable talking politics with who strike me as rational people (though I fear politics and rationality don't normally go together).  mile: But media hype and ideological schisms seems to be SOP. :frown:
SOP: true, which is why I personally believe the public should hold itself to a higher standard. If we began demanding that of the media, it must by course, follow.
Good point, politics is rarely rational. Perhaps we should depoliticize the national debates, and set them down by the hearth and give them a good going over.
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Uke Wrote:I doubt that you will take us all with you. EU, the largest economy, China the third largest economy and Japan the fourth largest can hold things up while you do little nursing for your country. America is going through rough times, I think that is because of USA's ridiculous military spending and corporate behavior. Government reforms are not even remotely enough - in my opinion, the overall American society must change. The concept of America must be redesigned. I'd personally like to see education's rise in America.
I don't know, search YouTube for Bill Maher because he has pretty good ideas for America's future.
I don't think he meant America alone, Uke. I think he means the world's future.
Federalism, such a unique idea.
From the Song of Hiawatha- (Longfellow)
By the shores of Gitche Gumee,
By the shining Big-Sea-Water,
Stood the wigwam of Nokomis,
Daughter of the Moon, Nokomis.
Dark behind it rose the forest,
Rose the black and gloomy pine-trees,
Rose the firs with cones upon them;
Bright before it beat the water,
Beat the clear and sunny water,
Beat the shining Big-Sea-Water.
There the wrinkled old Nokomis
Nursed the little Hiawatha,
Rocked him in his linden cradle,
Bedded soft in moss and rushes.
Safely bound with reindeer sinews;
Stilled his fretful wail by saying,
"Hush! the Naked Bear will hear thee!"
Lulled him into slumber, singing,
"Ewa-yea! my little owlet!
Who is this, that lights the wigwam?
With his great eyes lights the wigwam?
Ewa-yea! my little owlet!"
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Inchante Wrote:For instance, based on posts,Cloud999 seems rather conservative, yet I would be willing to bet the three of us--Pix, Cloud999, and I could find a lot to agree on concerning what should be done to improve and reverse current, negative, national trends. That is, if we dedicated ourselves to pursuing a higher level of dialog. I'm a libertarian. Guns, small government, legal drugs, and sexual freedom. Anti-leftist.
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Uke Wrote:The concept of America must be redesigned. I'd personally like to see education's rise in America. 40.3% of Americans have college degrees, compared with Finland's 36.4%. We invent most of the world-changing technologies for a reason.
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cloud999 Wrote:I'm a libertarian. Guns, small government, legal drugs, and sexual freedom. Anti-leftist.
While I wouldn't call myself a libertarian I do recall the first time I heard of them. I was 16 in a Texas school when 2 teachers were talking to us about state politicians and one sneeringly called one of them a libertarian. I asked what a libertarian was and she said, "Someone who thinks people should be able to do what they want and legalize all guns, drugs, and prostitution." Having endured my entire life under self-righteous busybodies (who were often hypocrites), and not happy with what then Gov. Bush had done to schools and the principal inspired by Janet Reno to try forcing school uniforms on us, I was amazed by the concept and to the surprise and horror of both my teachers I blurted out, "I didn't know politicians could be cool!" 
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cloud999 Wrote:40.3% of Americans have college degrees, compared with Finland's 36.4%. We invent most of the world-changing technologies for a reason.
Yes, but our 59.7% are not as well educated as their 63.6%, at least according to test scores. There was a time when the United States boasted the best education system in the world with the highest literacy rate. We aren't doing bad in the scheme of things, about middle of the road among the 30 most elite nations, but that means we are not competing as well as we should be, and the age of American Innovation could be effected if such trends are not curtailed. A big part of the problem is social, if you look at demographics. Those who live in poor areas of the nation have the lowest scores, often that overlaps with racial minorities (except Asians), so that a history of economic and ethnic division is being perpetuated through our institutions. Specifically, it is being perpetuated through the economic disparity between affluent and poor school districts.
That is not to say that social problems within these groups do not play a significant role in maintaining these educational differences. The prevalence of drug use, violence/criminality, single parent households, and subcultural views on the role and value of education have a great deal to do with the differences we see between certain demographics. Both of these subjects need to be addressed if we are to correct the problem--there is no point of equalizing the incomes of school districts if the culture in certain districts remains a part of the problem. Both have to be confronted simultaneously. But, unfortunately, these are also very touchy subjects in the national sphere, and most people do not want to have an honest conversation about this.
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gilhooly Wrote::confused:I am 65 and live in senior citizens housing. People from my age on up all doubt that the United States can continue without major changes.:eek: Most of us don't believe America can exist 20 years from now.:eek: We all seem to believe that if America collapses or files bankruptcy we will take the world economy down with us.:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:
I would like to know where GS members below the age of 40 believe the future lies.:confused: I would love to be cheered up.mile: I promise I will tell all my neighbors gay or straight how you think the world will be saved.
Like you I am certain God loves us all.:eek: Having said that I would like to hear something specific about the changes you think will happen. The future will be determined by people under 40 or thereabouts. I know way to many old people and I am not counting on them for a solution. At this point I am now only an expense for social security and medicare.:biggrin: If you suggest I commit suiide I will refuse.:tongue: Please try again.:mad:
Thoughts anyone????:confused:By the way I hate using emoticons!!!!!!!!
Gays are easy to bully. Gays quite often behave like bullies.
Good idea for a thread. At 22 I am influenced by my life partner who is my age, and my 47 year old mentor. We DVR the CBS news everyday, and catch some Ed Schultz or Chris Mathews several times a week.
As of last Monday the population of the planet is seven billion people. Way more than we will ever provide jobs for. I predict three groups evolving. The upper 1% of income. What used to me the middle class that now needs twice as much money to live the same way, and the disenfranchised peons.
Groups that overpopulate are targeted for tough lives. If I have no children, why should I have to pay for a family of eight that looses their breadwinner? Really not my responsibility. Income tax laws should be rewritten to only give deductions for the first two children. Sorry, but the poor are going to get kicked hard. For guys like me with college education, and some people skills, I will do ok, but not as well as my father did.
My parents had two children, because two was what they could afford to send to college. I subscribe to that thinking. When I see a woman pop out eight kids, I know I will never have to compete with any of them. They will never make it high enough up the food chain to compete with me.
Sorry if this remark is brazen, but throwing a human rights blanket over poor family planners is not sharing the truth. There is prejudice against people with more than two children. Privately, many employers will not consider job applicants from large families. I agree that couples with more than two children are irresponsible with a global population of seven billion. It makes me question their ability to deal with problems in general, and their thinking in problem solving on the job.
Like they say over at American Airlines, there are only so many seats in first class, and only so many seats on the plane. Some will take the bus, and some will have to walk.
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WesHollywood Wrote:The upper 1% of income. I am in the top 1% of the richest humans on Earth.
The disenfranchised peons are in Africa, South America, and Asia, not America.
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How do young people view the future?
