Occupy Wall St---I warned you, didn't I?

[WesHollywood]

That is an absurd statement. Whilst, of course, it is a matter of international politics for the rest of the world for the Arab countries where it occurred it is a matter of domestic politics.

This I love. My premise is absurd to you, and then you agree with me! Check your facts, the Libyan rebels appealed to NATO - domestic or international act? Duh!

First I was perfectly aware that Britain and France played the leading role not the U.S., I am believe it or not, not actually an idiot. Whether America led or merely supported operations is completely irrelevant to my point. America was involving itself in the domestic affairs of another country.

If you knew the UK and France led the Libyan effort, why didn't you just say so instead of muddying the water? Now that you insist on making a fool of yourself. If the U. S. supported the UK and France, wouldn't they be the ones involving themselves in the domestic affairs of Libya? Serious up we were all invited by the rebels to support them in nailing a dictator we wanted to destroy. It was an international issue because NATO was involved. What do they teach you about history in your schools? Perhaps I should post a dictionary definition of the word "domestic" for you! :biggrin:

I apologise for not randomly bringing up WW1 & WW2 with every American I happen to converse with and thanking them personally.

You are a bunch of snobs parading around like you are doing something important when your empires Rome, Greece, Portugal, Spain, UK, and France all failed. You love to look down your nose at America until you need some help. Everyone's day is coming - and soon. If the economy of United States goes down, you suckers are going down too!!! Got it! :eek:

And I am getting tired here of sounding like a conservative Republican, but perhaps as a liberal I should listen to the cons more often? Europe deserves a hard slap in the face.

Nobody else demands links. I have better things to do with my time. If you think I'm wrong, you do your homework, and present a decent argument rather than the arguments above.

I can not believe you posted that. Why not just hang a sign around your neck that says "Ignorant." You are literally trying to justify taking your manufactured bull shit, without substantiation, in a discussion forum. Unbelievable.

I am sorry the relevance of the paragraph above is completely lost on me. Although I would point out that if American tax payers don't want to pay for being a global power then I suggest they vote for candidates who would slash the defence budget regardless of whether or not Europe wants to be a global power.

We just trashed the Department of Defense by not coming up with a budget. Automatic cuts begin for the next ten years in defense - Trillions! You know over here we get awful tired of the planet asking for our help and then we are the bad guys. It happened in Korea, Viet Nam, and Iraq. Yet the foreigners keep coming here looking for a free ride. We have been far too generous and we need to slam the door hard on the hands trying to pry in. At least English is still the dominant language even here in Los Angeles.

You do realize that if the world economy collapses, the United States will be the last to go. Kind of like having first class seats on the Titanic. I may go down, but I am going to get to see all the freeloaders go first.

This is a forum with many non-Americans. You demand that we stick to the Occupy Wall Street topic yet also demand that American domestic affairs are none of our 'damn business'.

Gee. Isn't the topic of this thread, "Occupy Wall Street?" Perhaps that is what is being discussed. Yep, looks like it to me. Are you actually complaining that we are "On-topic?" Domestic affairs are none of your damn business. Occupy Wall Street is a wide open topic 1). because the corporations there are global, and 2). the movement has spread around the world. Is this really that difficult for you? Do you even remember the domestic issue I called you on? Looks like an anti-American rant to me.

The only way to satisfy both demands is for only Americans to comment on this thread. Perhaps you would be happier in an Americans only forum?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My high school debate teacher used to say whenever a point starts out with "The only way........" You have the guy beat.

This is the first time, that I can recall, that I have ever taken a position against Europe I think your history is amazing, and you are realistic in your global perspective. Overall I think you have done a much better job than the United States in prioritizing. You are blessed by not having conservative Republicans. Just the thought of Knewt Gingrich in the White House makes me want to do myself in. I admit I do like to "stir the stew" from time to time, but this thread is way out of control.

However, this kind of verbal combat could be a good thing for all of us. We Americans, at this time, are under criticism by certain groups in our country of being Eurocentric. All our founding fathers were of European extraction. Even the president's oath of office has a clause that he will defend our heritage. So, I find this thread stressful.

You see one particular ethnic group here has charged that the word "Eurocentric" really means "white race." It has not been the African Americans, who have PLENTY of justification for attacking our government regarding broken promises. I find this very sad considering the first American to die in the American Revolution was African American.

I am also tired of feeling I have to defend my race in a country primarily built by my race. So, please have a little sympathy for us U. S. liberals, we are being attacked on all sides. We have a president, whom I campaigned for, that promised to "clean up Wall Street." Yet the Democratic Party controlled the government in 2009 & 2010 and never held a hearing or jailed anyone on the biggest financial scandal in our nation's history.

This is not a good time for us, which translates to it is not a good time for you either. I watch the events in Greece, and just cringe. Politically, and financially I think the whole planet could go under. When that happened in 1930 it took until 1954 for the United States to come back.

Two weeks ago I sold off my food stock and bought gold on the recommendation of my stock broker. My fucking commission based STOCKBROKER!!! I know you can figure that one out. Manicure anyone? At least they will look good as we are hanging on by our finger nails.

[fredv3b]

I give up. Say whatever you want.

This argument is utterly pointless. America is so clearly so close to perfect that it is beyond reproach by any non-Americans.

[WesHollywood]

I give up. Say whatever you want.

This argument is utterly pointless. America is so clearly so close to perfect that it is beyond reproach by any non-Americans.

I agree, I can take a poke. I am just glad you are not French, because without them, there would be no United States. Please accept the feeling of this American version of the French National Anthem as an expression of how we feel about France whenever we remember the American Revolution of 1776. Of course you realize we Americans have a hang up about saying we love, and frankly I don't think the French want to hear it. Thank you.

[East]

Err...I am going to refrain from commenting on most of the things in this thread....I am a Liberal as well...not a Democrat...and I really wish I understood the purpose of OWS. I have tried and I have heard alot of things and considered all of them but personally I despise being manipulated by ANYONE and I think that we are all systematically being pitted against each other.

So many in the Tea Party are unaware that they are NOT a grassroots movement and it used to shock me until I realize that ideology trumps the truth and common sense in many cases. They were the birthers before the Koch Brothers came up with the Tea Party and the older people protesting SS and Medicare didnt' even know enough to be embarrassed...YIKES!...

...and because I watched that unfold...it seems to me that OWS is capitalizing on people's resentment of rich people and corporations. Because I watched the train wreck that is the Tea Party I have more questions than anything else.

[dfiant]

The purpose of Occupy is lost on me too. All I see in Australia's occupy protests are groups of unemployed protesting about those who have jobs, I don't care how many millions some people are being paid, that is a matter that should be raised between employee and employer.

Centrelink (Australia's Dept. of Social Security) Should be out there cancelling peoples dole based on the fact that if they have the time to sit on their arse all day, they have time to do what the tax payers are paying them for...LOOK FOR A JOB. The Dole is a benefit, not an income.

If you are unhappy about capatilism or whatever the protest is really about, then go get an effing job, whinge about your tax dollars being misapropriated, and boycott the companies that you believe don't deserve your consumer dollars.

I believe in competition, so I won't spend a cent on any monopolistic or duopolistic business. I work for one such company that is in a duoplostic relationship with a similar company, I take their money in wages and I spend it in a business outside the duopoly...that's how you protest.

[Genersis]

Err...I am going to refrain from commenting on most of the things in this thread....I am a Liberal as well...not a Democrat...and I really wish I understood the purpose of OWS. I have tried and I have heard alot of things and considered all of them but personally I despise being manipulated by ANYONE and I think that we are all systematically being pitted against each other.

So many in the Tea Party are unaware that they are NOT a grassroots movement and it used to shock me until I realize that ideology trumps the truth and common sense in many cases. They were the birthers before the Koch Brothers came up with the Tea Party and the older people protesting SS and Medicare didnt' even know enough to be embarrassed...YIKES!...

...and because I watched that unfold...it seems to me that OWS is capitalizing on people's resentment of rich people and corporations. Because I watched the train wreck that is the Tea Party I have more questions than anything else.

Unfortunately, to me at least, the Occupy movement seems to be quite unorganised, which, to be honest, is to be expected of a movement like this.
Also, i'd wager most of the protesters are driven by ideology or anger at big corporations(Like with most movements). Hopefully most of them know what their actual goal is as a group....

This is the simplest form of their statement of purpose, so to speak, that i have found(Even if it is the London variant):

On 16 October, the Occupy London protesters issued the following 'Initial Statement':[29]
1 The current system is unsustainable. It is undemocratic and unjust. We need alternatives; this is where we work towards them.
2 We are of all ethnicities, backgrounds, genders, generations, sexualities dis/abilities and faiths. We stand together with occupations all over the world.
3 We refuse to pay for the banks’ crisis.
4 We do not accept the cuts as either necessary or inevitable. We demand an end to global tax injustice and our democracy representing corporations instead of the people.
5 We want regulators to be genuinely independent of the industries they regulate.
6 We support the strike on the 30th November and the student action on the 9th November, and actions to defend our health services, welfare, education and employment, and to stop wars and arms dealing.
7 We want structural change towards authentic global equality. The world’s resources must go towards caring for people and the planet, not the military, corporate profits or the rich.

Take from that, what you will.mile:
I see it as a movement to stop the rich and corporations having so much sway on our planet.

I'm pretty annoyed how most media outlets i've seen call them anti-capitalist mind...at least once in every story on them. And, call me crazy, but it almost seems to be on purpose, along with the avoidance of stating the movements purpose to keep the public in the dark on what the movement is(even if it's not written in stone).
But meh, perhaps i've been watching too many liberals talking on the subject.:redface:
All i've heard from(only a few) conservative sources is that the protesters are anti-capitalist, unemployed and should all just get a job and stop being jealous of the rich.

Hope my info proves at least a little useful east.:redface:

[WesHollywood]

I really think we are making too much of #OWS goals. The thing started because American college students could not 'make the system" work for them. It is not their fault that there were no jobs for them upon graduation. And they are deeply in debt for their apparently worthless education.

Then came the senior citizens with a lot of time on their hands, and their financial situation. Social Security has not paid COLA increases two years. Behind them came those over 40 who felt age prejudice in the unemployment line.

Then came Wisconsin Governor Walker attacking collective bargaining followed by recall elections. The Governor of Ohio had his own program against collective bargaining and lost at the ballot box BIG TIME. #OWS is discovering its power. The Republican 1% is scared. In fact they appear to be in panic mode! They have no leader nor a viable presidential candidate for 2012.

Now Congress has gone on break failing to reduce the payroll tax which will cost the average taxpayer $1,000 to $1,500 in 2012.

Now it is winter, there is a plan for an #OWS convention before the American election next November. Things are just falling together so easily for #OWS. President Obama is being slapped by his own party, (including me). Sum it all up into one word in America? [B]ANGER.

And at the bottom of it all is the loss of billions in the Wall Street Bail Out. The largest financial scandal in American history in 2008. In 2009 and 2010 the Democratic Party dominated the government. In two years of Democrats in power, did you see a single Congressional hearing? Did anyone go to jail?

It is about GROWING ANGER.. I predict both parties are going to pay for the mess - across the board. It should not be too hard when Congress has the lowest approval rating ever -[B] 9%.[/B]

This is one of those everyone pointing at everyone else situations. What is it big business likes to say, "Success has many fathers, but failure is an orphan." Sounds fair to me! You can make your own prediction of events from here.

I think The politicians and Wall Street will probably take the burn, because many predict the next group to join #OWS, (now that we have teacher, nurses, fire fighters, and police), should be small business who is getting screwed out of their big Christmas season by lazy Washington politicians. I am staying tuned to CBS News, and Ed Schultz on MSNBC for the play-by-play.

[East]

Thanks Gen! I actually have read that or something similar but I think it boils down to this maybe

Take from that, what you will.
I see it as a movement to stop the rich and corporations having so much sway on our planet.

Every time I think about elaborating on my thoughts I see volumes and volumes if I were to share all of my thoughts on the topic..I have been a lifetime liberal in the sense I believe that society and any group for that matter is as strong as it's weakest link. I believe in everyone contributing to the well being of the whole. I think our humanity should evolve as has science and medicine instead of going backward.

Capitalism in it's current state in the USA has an expiration date. This expiration date is due to one simple thing...GREED. It has been that way for many years and it has been unfolding for my entire lifetime. People with alot of money like to think about how they can get even more money and the power that comes with it. Other people are the tools and resources they use to get the wealth they seek, Sometimes this works out well..thanks to unions and regulations...but with the world wide labor force in direct competition with American workers and the greedy people wanting even more money it has hit the wall. For the people who think the unemployed are lazy...millions of baby boomers who had benefits and many years experience were cut from their jobs en masse to save money and hire younger cheaper labor with little to no benefits to replace them and new job offers are NOT open to the currently unemployed.

...When 10% of the population owns 90% of the wealth and 90% of the people own 10% of the wealth you will have revolution of one sort or another. As I tell my Republican friends...stop deluding yourselves...if you need to think of your "contribution" as welfare...try tweaking it a little bit and realize it is your own welfare you are contributing to because revolution rarely works out well for people like them....if millions of people are starving and you have fat dripping down your face...do the math.

As I said...I cannot really fully elaborate because it would be endless but I hope that sums it up for me and finally my last thought on OWS...just as the older people who rely on Medicare and Social Security were screaming at Tea Party meetings to cut the benefits FOR OTHER PEOPLE...and the fact that they didnt' have a clue how insane and gluttonous they sounded...I would need to know that the current crop of OWS are not just protesting greed because they dont' have any money and when they get some will they become the very thing they hate today?...do they really want change because they have always hated greed or is it just because it is finally affecting them? I need to be convinced it is actual CHANGE they want for the well being of everyone before I commit any further interest in the movement.

Sorry if my thoughts were jumbled...this is such a huge topic it is hard to condense.

[fredv3b]

I agree, I can take a poke. I am just glad you are not French, because without them, there would be no United States. Please accept the[COLOR="Blue"] feeling[/COLOR] of this American version of the French National Anthem as an expression of how we [COLOR="Blue"]feel[/COLOR] about France whenever we remember the American Revolution of 1776. Of course you realize we Americans have a hang up about saying we love, and frankly I don't think the French want to hear it. Thank you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oROASA1v92U

I am sorry you appear to have misunderstood me. I find arguing with you to be utterly pointless. Every point I make is completely ignored.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[WesHollywood]

I am sorry you appear to have misunderstood me. I find arguing with you to be utterly pointless. Every point I make is completely ignored.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

When you make a link verified point, based upon facts, I will be more than happy to give it the attention it deserves.

I was trying to be polite. This cyclic argument about what is a "domestic issue" is a waste of time. To assist you I have taken my time to provide the World English Dictionary definition of "domestic." Hope you find it helpful. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/domestic


[COLOR="DarkRed"]
[SIZE="3"]
"domestic (dəˈmɛstɪk)[/SIZE]

— adj
1. of or involving the home or family
2. enjoying or accustomed to home or family life
3. (of an animal) bred or kept by man as a pet or for purposes such as the supply of food
4. of, produced in, or involving one's own country or a specific country: domestic and foreign affairs (please note they are listed seperately as "domestic AND foreign affairs").

— n
5. a household servant
6. informal (esp in police use) an incident of violence in the home, esp between a man and a woman

[C16: from Old French domestique, from Latin domesticus belonging to the house, from domus house]
do'mestically
— adv"[/COLOR]

I hope I have provided adequate information to end our verbal masturbation in this thread. You're welcome.