HIV neg dating HIV pos

[OrphanPip]

For this reason, I recommend that HIV Positive people date only other HIV Positive people. If HIV couldn't spread, it wouldn't be the fastest-growing pandemic my generation has witnessed. On the (not so) bright side, HIV Positive people now have millions of other HIV Positive people to potentially date.

I would just like to point out that unprotected sex between positive individuals leads to multiple strain infections (not to mention issues of co-infection with hepatitis) and compounds the effects of drug resistance. It is important that people who are HIV positive act responsibly and practice safe sex under all conditions.

And mathematically Story is right. The probability will approach one, but very slowly and will never actually reach 1, as we are speaking of independent probability. In which case the probability of being infected long term is 1 - (P)^x where P is the probability of not being infected from a single exposure and x is the number of sexual encounters.

Such that 1 - 9999/10000 = 1/10000 for one sexual exposure. Whereas for 10,000 exposures it is about a 3678/10000 people with 10000 exposures who will become infected. Not that these are the actual numbers. The actual risk would be lower, and 10,000 sexual encounters is an awful lot. And there are other sexual practices people can do to limit risk in such a couple, such that the pos person does not top, or they avoid anal sex entirely. People are capable of having intimate relationships with an HIV positive person with very little risk to themselves if they act responsibly.

As far as I have read, and remember from when I did my immunology degree, Story is right that the risk of infection through protected sex from someone who has their viral load under control through medication is low. What you are doing, Cloud, is creating a culture of irrational fear around HIV positive individuals, the kind of hysteria that used to result in HIV positive people being forced out of school and jobs because of fears of infection. Promoting a segregationist attitude towards HIV pos individuals does nothing more than push people into the AIDS closet, where they hide their status, avoid getting tested, and we all end up a lot more at risk.



As to the topic of transmission, HIV can be transmitted through mucosal tissue in the mouth and the penis, and there are small amounts of HIV virus particles in saliva. Thus, infection this way is theoretically possible without blood or semen, but how likely it is is difficult to determine.

[cloud999]

I would just like to point out that unprotected sex between positive individuals leads to multiple strain infections (not to mention issues of co-infection with hepatitis) and compounds the effects of drug resistance. It is important that people who are HIV positive act responsibly and practice safe sex under all conditions.

Indeed. But if we're all pursuing relationships with HIV positive people now...how can we expect HIV positive people to act responsibly?

And mathematically Story is right. The probability will approach one, but very slowly and will never actually reach 1, as we are speaking of independent probability. In which case the probability of being infected long term is 1 - (P)^x where P is the probability of not being infected from a single exposure and x is the number of sexual encounters.

Such that 1 - 9999/10000 = 1/10000 for one sexual exposure. Whereas for 10,000 exposures it is about a 3678/10000 people with 10000 exposures who will become infected. Not that these are the actual numbers. The actual risk would be lower, and 10,000 sexual encounters is an awful lot. And there are other sexual practices people can do to limit risk in such a couple, such that the pos person does not top, or they avoid anal sex entirely. People are capable of having intimate relationships with an HIV positive person with very little risk to themselves if they act responsibly.

I addressed this in an above post...and so you've made my point. Using your hypothetical example, consider the number of sexual encounters in a given day in China. Toss in the fun of exponential growth, and can anyone be surprised that HIV is the leading cause of infectious-disease death in China?

It's not the marble-bag that Storm describes, but rather the the law of large numbers at play here.

As far as I have read, and remember from when I did my immunology degree, Story is right that the risk of infection through protected sex from someone who has their viral load under control through medication is low.

Transmission from protected anal sex, if memory serves, was about 0.002%. Assuming protection was used properly and remained intact.

What you are doing, Cloud, is creating a culture of irrational fear around HIV positive individuals, the kind of hysteria that used to result in HIV positive people being forced out of school and jobs because of fears of infection. Promoting a segregationist attitude towards HIV pos individuals does nothing more than push people into the AIDS closet, where they hide their status, avoid getting tested, and we all end up a lot more at risk.

A culture of irrational fear? What we have today is a culture of irrational complacency among those who never experienced the panic of the 1980s. It's people like the OP who lived through that period and so are asking these important questions.

In my experience, guys our age are too busy getting drunk and randomly hooking up every-other night to care about HIV. Which might explain why men our age have the highest new infection count in America. If a little fear keeps them getting tested and putting on condoms, its worth it.

For that matter, I see 20 female STD screens for every male STD screen. The few males we get are almost always positive. Why? Because young men think they are immortal. If it's now safe to sleep with known HIV Positive people, then what's the harm of random drunk/stoned hookups?

I'm sorry, but I think we should be less worried about HIV patients feelings, and more worried about both preventing and curing their disease.

[LateBloomer]

A culture of irrational fear? What we have today is a culture of irrational complacency among those who never experienced the panic of the 1980s. It's people like the OP who lived through that period and so are asking these important questions.

In my experience, guys our age are too busy getting drunk and randomly hooking up every-other night to care about HIV. Which might explain why men our age have the highest new infection count in America. If a little fear keeps them getting tested and putting on condoms, its worth it.

For that matter, I see 20 female STD screens for every male STD screen. The few males we get are almost always positive. Why? Because young men think they are immortal. If it's now safe to sleep with known HIV Positive people, then what's the harm of random hookups?

I'm sorry, but I think we should be less worried about HIV patients feelings, and more worried about both preventing and curing their disease.

It's an interesting discussion, but surely there's a happy medium somewhere.

As an anecdote, I've certainly noticed "complacency" in younger men. I've been shocked at the willingness to "bareback" with multiple anonymous partners--and as OrphanPip pointed out, HIV is not the only concern here.

But I'm also concerned about a "culture of discrimination" (in our work and personal lives) for those infected with HIV.

Yes, we need to be careful. But no, we shouldn't make people fearful.

We should be smart and brave.

[cloud999]

It's an interesting discussion, but surely there's a happy medium somewhere.

I think we should teach the public that HIV people aren't dangerous in everyday life, but repeatedly having sex with them, or getting splashed with their blood (in the ER, for example), is dangerous.

It's not leprosy...but it's not the common cold.

As an anecdote, I've certainly noticed "complacency" in younger men. I've been shocked at the willingness to "bareback" with multiple anonymous partners--and as OrphanPip pointed out, HIV is not the only concern here.

I've had young men *beg* me to top them bareback...AFTER I gave them the HIV lecture. Seriously.

"But you work in the hospital...and I know I'm negative. So lets do it! I want to feel you raw."

*facepalm*

But I'm also concerned about a "culture of discrimination" (in our work and personal lives) for those infected with HIV.

Yes, we need to be careful. But no, we shouldn't make people fearful.

We should be smart and brave.

I expose myself to organisms that will kill you far faster than HIV...but wear heavy gloves, a protective suit, and biohazard re-breather when appropriate.

Fear, when kept in check, is a useful tool that alerts one to danger. I'm afraid of missing a hole in my protective gear, and so am extra-careful when I suit up.

[pellaz]

didnt this thread take off!

first off, if something is low probability:
-even with one event you could score an infection
-you odds of getting infected are almost certain if you have enough events, just the math, sorry.

-the hiv incubation period is 1-3 months. during that time you could infect your partner. are we going to test our selves every week?
-2 boys start a relationship and get tested that day with negative results, still they should wait 3-6mo and get tested a 2nd time. before unprotected sex.
-if someone is hiv+ but takes care of himself, his viral level is not necessary stable every day. bad if you pick that day to be careless, the same day it spikes in his system:

around end of 2008 i got really really sick with some sort of viral thing. it didnt go away for a long time. i was frightened i got the hiv. i still dont know what i wound up with but i got tested about 4 times. i am thankful nothing showed up.

anybody can have the hiv and not know

[OrphanPip]

didnt this thread take off!

first off, if something is low probability:
-even with one event you could score an infection
-you odds of getting infected are almost certain if you have enough events, just the math, sorry.

Is that really an effective argument though? We do things with a chance of killing us every day, driving being the most notable one, it certainly kills more people in the West than HIV. No one is saying it is risk free, but it can be relatively low risk, and possible to have a relationship with a pos person and not contract it yourself if you are careful. Especially, when we consider the possibility of removing the most risky sexual behavior from the situation.

Creating a more accommodating culture around HIV positive status will do a lot to help combat the disease by bringing it into the open, the primary reason people don't get tested is because they fear the positive result. The disease could be better controlled if the sentence of social stigma wasn't going to be hanging over the head of everyone. We can't be scaring people away from getting treatment, and at least trying to understand the disease.

I have said before in other threads that I would not be comfortable dating someone who was positive status, and I do not do unprotected sex even in long term relationships. However, that does not mean that it is an illegitimate choice for others to make, or that people should be discouraged from making that choice once they have thought over all the relevant information.

Really, what we do by telling people who are positive that they shouldn't date others is nothing more than encouraging them to hide their status.

[cloud999]

Is that really an effective argument though? We do things with a chance of killing us every day, driving being the most notable one, it certainly kills more people in the West than HIV. No one is saying it is risk free, but it can be relatively low risk, and possible to have a relationship with a pos person and not contract it yourself if you are careful. Especially, when we consider the possibility of removing the most risky sexual behavior from the situation.

Driving is relatively low-risk, yet every person who regularly commutes will invariable crash sometime in their lifetimes.

Creating a more accommodating culture around HIV positive status will do a lot to help combat the disease by bringing it into the open, the primary reason people don't get tested is because they fear the positive result. The disease could be better controlled if the sentence of social stigma wasn't going to be hanging over the head of everyone. We can't be scaring people away from getting treatment, and at least trying to understand the disease.

I think HIV and AIDS is terrifying without any stigmas, simple because it will slice decades off of your life and force you to take a series of expensive and toxic medications.

Eliminating the public stigma won't stop fear of the disease...as you know the facts yet still won't date HIV positive individuals.

Really, what we do by telling people who are positive that they shouldn't date others is nothing more than encouraging them to hide their status.

Hiding your status, if known, and sleeping with unsuspecting others is a felony in most states. People have been convicted for intentionally infecting others with HIV.

And nowhere did I say these individuals shouldn't date...but that they should seek out others with the disease. Of course, this increases the risk of other STDs (and they're already vulnerable), but I would hope that the HIV positive person would've learned the importance of protection.

[LateBloomer]

Great discussion guys.

[pellaz]

... We do things with a chance of killing us every day, ... but it can be relatively low risk, and possible to have a relationship with a pos person

Creating a more accommodating culture around HIV positive status will do a lot to help combat the disease by bringing it into the open, the primary reason people don't get tested is because they fear the positive result. The disease could be better controlled if the sentence of social stigma wasn't going to be hanging over the head of everyone. ...

I would not be comfortable dating someone who was positive status

what we do by telling people who are positive that they shouldn't date others is nothing more than encouraging them to hide their status.

OrphanPip
you contradict your self, but at least not in the same paragraph

[BobInTampa]

Ok, i have read, and re-read this thread and I feel compelled to reply.

I have been living with HIV for 17 years, so with all due respect to cloud and some of the other's posting here, i think i have a unique perspective on your question.

first off, i want to compliment you first and foremost on treating that guy with so much respect and not running away after he told you he was hiv poz. That shows a high-degree of maturity because so many neg men would have not only passed on messing around with him, but would have made him feel very bad.

First thing i would do is GET EDUCATED about HIV! Whether you end up seeing him again or not, it's better to be educated than ignorant about HIV.

Despite all the mis-information about HIV, it's not EASY to get infected - especially if you know about safer sex practices. I woudn't go to a Doctor, i would find a state-certified HIV counselor (these are non-profit organizations that do free hiv testing) and talk with him/her. The discussion should be about how to prevent transmission.

What one of the other guys posted is also VERY TRue about viral loads and being on HAART regimine. Our current testing for viral load (the number of copies of the virus per millileter of blood) only goes so far. So, even if a guy is "undetectable" there's still hiv somewhere.

In 2009, a swedish study of serodiscordant couples (poz/neg couple) where the couples were having unprotected sex but that the poz partner was undetectable showed that the rate of infection was no higher than the control group. Now, this study sent a shock wave thru the gay community because they were afraid it was sending the wrong messge - that it's ok to have unprotected sex if you're poz and undetectable - but that's NOT what the survey showed. It showed that infection among these couples was NO HIGHER than those who used condoms. I bring this up because i wanted to let you and others know how much research is being done on hiv transmission, treatment and preventation.

Here's a few things to chew on:
1) HIV is NO LONGER A DEATH SENTENCE! If you take your meds and watch your health and don't do recreational drugs and are in a monogamous LTR you can expect to live a long and happy life.
2) HIV poz folks aren't all whores! yes, we made a mistake (in my case the guy who infected me LIED to me) but we're human beings - we don't need to be treated like we're monsters.
3) The pure fact of the matter is, if you're not 100% abstinent, and you have occasional sex partners, the CDC released a report this year that up to 30% of all sexually active men are hiv poz and dno't know it. So, the fact that this guy TOLD you upfront he was poz showed he's a man of honor and respect.
4) Can you have a long and happy and sexually fulfilling LTR with an hiv poz partner? ABSOLUTELY!
5) Can you hold hands, kiss, hug your poz partner and NOT get infected? YES
6) Can you engage in oral and anal sex with your poz partner and not get infected? YES

So, what it REALLY comes down to on this topic falls squarely on the shoulders of hiv neg. men...can you look past a guy's hiv status to move forward with dating him? My gut is, with you, the answer is yes!

I really take exception with the statement by one poster that poz men should only date poz men and neg men should only date neg men. Separating humans based on a medical condition is both cruel and unfair.

When i was single i really struggled with how so many negative men treated me with cruelty. What hurt the most was when i would see the same guys who turned me down for a date (a date, not a trick) were on Craigs list or Grindr posting for sex and saying, "Looking for NSA bareback sex with other "clean" drug/disease free guys." REALLY? The same guy didn't want to have dinner with me because i am poz but he's out there barebacking guys who SAY they are hiv negative?

Oh, and to all reading this, PLEASE STOP USING THE TERM "CLEAN" to describe your hiv status. We are not "dirty" so please refrain from using that term.

Sorry to get on a rant here, but until you've actually lived with HIV it tough to hear people preach about waht it's like to be poz.

I can't tell you how many friends i have who live with hiv and are in very happy and fulfilling LTRs - some are in poz/poz LTRs and some are in poz/neg LTRs, but what they all have in common is a healthy respect for the virus but they do NOT let it drive their life or their future or their dreams!

Last thing, i hear alot of neg guys say that the reason they don't date poz guys fall into 2 categories:
1) They want to ultimatly have a monogamous LTR with a partner and want to be free to have unprotected sex with him. So, they may miss the man of their dreams because tehy might have to wear a CONDOM when they make love? REALLY? Hmmm....ok
2) They fear that their poz partner will die of AIDS and they don't want to see that happen. Well guess what folks? We're ALL going to die - none of us know how, where or when, and while being poz used to mean death, it dson't anymore.

If you have any questions about HIV or dating poz guys or having safer sex with a poz partner, feel free to ask me via private email.

Once again, i applaud you for being a man of high character with how you treated that guy and i hope my post helps in some small way.