I don't see that as a contradiction, I feel the same way. I mean you can be accepting of something and support that something, but still be uncomfortable enough to not want to be a part of it...Sort of like a str8 man supporting gay marriage, but not being comfortable with the idea of being gay himself.
I wouldn't be comfortable knowingly exposing myself to HIV, but I would love to see they way HIV sufferers are treated.
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pellaz Wrote:OrphanPip
you contradict your self, but at least not in the same paragraph
Just as dfiant has said, I am not interested in doing all sorts of things personally that I will not say other people shouldn't do. I'm not comfortable with dating men twice my age, but I don't stand in the way of people who are interested in that, nor do I think it is an illegitimate choice. I think one should have the maturity to step back from their own subjectivities to comment on what is appropriate for others.
This should have been obvious given the fact that the very sentence you decided to quote mine was followed with an elaboration on the subject.
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I watched my brother wither and die from full blown AIDS in the 80s. That was before they had treatments. It wasn't pretty. My experience with the Virus was an ugly one, and I got to watch friend after friend contract it, wither, fade away and finally (and in those days, mercifully) die.
As such, I swore up and down that I would never - never - be with an HIV+ man.
Two years into my current relationship the test results for my partner came back positive.
Things happen... your perspective in life changes. Kay sera sera
Yeah that sounds so calm and serene, that perfect 'acceptance' of things I cannot change.
But that is what I say. What really happens is a bit different.
I'm still with my partner. I made a choice to stay with him after finding out. That was my choice. It was a hard choice in only that I feared FOR him and watching him go like so many others I had seen. But I loved him, I loved him so much that I didn't want him to 'go it alone.'
I made that choice when I was still naive of what I was getting myself into.
Fear of infection for myself is pretty low.... Consider I am a top and have a much lower risk at contracting the HIV. However when the condom does break, an icy cold finger traces the back of my spine, then a small dull lump of cold sits in my stomach until my regularly scheduled test. After blood draw I spend a week sweating in cold fear the results. When the Negative comes back, I sigh with great relief, but not complete relief because one test does not mean I really am negative.
But, the fear doesn't stop there.
There is the reports and medications and the doctors visits, where you get to learn what the T-Cell Count is, what the viral load is and each visit you wait for you are wondering if the doctor will say 'Well this is no longer effective, sorry.' You fear FOR your partner.
Then there is the late nights where you lay there wondering how it will end. Will it be a sudden flu turned pneumonia, or will it be a cluster attack of a plethora of minor infections that will slowly debilitate and kill. Things like, What kind of care will he need, will I be able to afford a visiting nurse? you know things that people don't usually worry about until later in life.
Flu season is fun. You wonder, is this the flu that will start the downhill road? That common virus is now a potential deadly bullet. His leaving the house may be a death sentence for him.....
Even getting a flu vaccine doesn't really help, especially if you start looking up the controversy on its effectiveness, or consider the potential risks. In this dessert, there is no shelter, no relief.
Swine flu year was much more fun than ordinary flu years. While most people were simply scared, I was terrified. Didn't get much sleep for a few months.
He sneezes, your gut tightens and you wonder if this was the sneeze that announces the slow death.
While you can go days, weeks, acting like nothing is there, the reality is that there is that nagging 'thing' sitting there, teasing you, eating at you. Little things suddenly thrust it on your mind, and all of the worry, all of the fear is revealed to you.
And it isn't your own fear either. HE has fears too. If you are the all around top, then you got to be strong and be supportive, you have to be his pillar of strength. So you get to share his fears, his dreads, the late night crying fits as it hits home again and again that he will most likely die from that dark seed in his blood.
He will panic too when the condom breaks... Suddenly you find your self being pushed away. A month, two months six months maybe even a year and change will have to pass before he 'accepts' you and has recovered enough from the last shock of fear to have sex with you.
You have to be patient, understanding. If you have needs, take matters to hand. you can't really scream at him for pushing you away. You can't 'justify' cheating, after all you committed yourself to the HIV and this is a part of it. Deal with it.
He also worries when you go in for THE TEST, because he is always wondering if he killed you. He also frets and worries over each doctors visit. A minor drop in T-cells, a minor increase of Viral load may scare you, it terrifies him.
Diet, exercise, a constant struggle finding new ways to be 'healthy' following the latest treatments and news... Support him, help him, pretend with him that a cure is just around the corner... Its not. And these new meds...
The treatment can be worse than the disease. How many late nights have we woken up because a simply fart has become diarrhea in his sleep? Imagine his embarrassment when it happens while out in public. He looks at you and says 'We got to go home.' At first you don't understand, but then that look on his face tells you, yep he sharted again. God bless those pills. he is mollified, and you are powerless to take that 'shame' away.
Swelling, fatigue... need I list all the side effects for you?
Powerless. You are powerless. You can't stop his fear, you can't stop his dread. the days he vomits because of the pills all you can do is rub his back and calculate how much drug may be in his system by looking at the puke and judging how dissolved the pills are.
There are currently 21 medications approved by the FDA for the treatment of HIV. We are on 14... we are getting close to the end. You are of course powerless to prevent the doctor from saying 'oops, effectiveness of X is not therapeutic, time to move on to Z. now we are on 15, one step closer to the end.
You are powerless to do anything more.
When one partner has HIV BOTH partners suffer. Granted, if you remain HIV negative you do not get physically sick and do not have death hanging over your head. but you are affected, your relationship is affected. Everyday becomes a new day where something related to that HIV will wave at you, reminding you that the HIV is in your home, is in your lover, and is making you less of a man because, God damn it, you are powerless before it.
HIV becomes part of your relationship. It sits there taking up way too much oxygen. It pokes at your mind when you least expect it. It changes the dynamics of the relationship. Yes there are long times when you will live "normally" those are too short lived before life reminds you that nope, you are not in a normal relationship.
Your worried about sex and getting infected - child's play. There is less worry in having unsafe sex with ten HIV positive men compared to all the crap HIV gives you when you are in a relationship with it
But keep on saying the mantra, and tell everyone:
Things happen... Kay sera sera
At least they will be comforted.
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I have all the sympathy in the world for the HIV+ people. I have a friend going through aids discovery now. It is emotionally awful. Much better to take a sexual pass all together. My partner and I get regular tests. All I can tell you is that when I go out on my own, I do not trust a rubber. The rest of my life is worth a lot more than a quick drill.
I read this thread, and thought how can anyone live with HIV, when all it really takes is self-discipline to stay clean.
I'll tell you straight away, unless I have seen the aids test data from that day, there is going to be a lot of body action that ends with a hand job. I plan to marry my partner one day, and we will not have this plague in our bed.
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Sobering stuff Bowyn.
Thanks for sharing your experience and God bless you for sticking with your partner.
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That really puts things into perspective. I'd like to take your story and plaster it on the wall of every gay club in this country.
Thank you, Bowyn.
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Wow, this thread has taken off and i'm impressed with so many of the posts.
I am, however, a bit concerned that some of the personal positions on this topic might be percieved as FACT. The bottom line when it comes to poz/neg relationships is: IT'S A PERSONAL DECISION.
For every horrible story of a poz/neg couple living with a black cloud of sickness, side-effects and pain, there is an equally uplifting story of a poz/neg couple living a full, happy and sexually fulfilling life together. HIV is a virus and how it effect each host is different. So we have to be mindful of keeping balance and compassion when we talk about this very important issue.
The only way to be 100% safe is to NOT have any penetrative sex with a partner (kissing, hugging, j/o are fine, but oral and anal - even protected is not 100%).
Regarding testing, that's such a difficult issue to wrap our heads around because test results are all about being HONEST! For example, if you meet a guy today and he says he just got tested on Oct 1 and did not have HIV. The next question is, have you had sex with anyone since Oct 1? If the answer is YES - even if it was "safer sex" - those test results mean absolutly NOTHING! So, say you BOTH go today and get tested and you both still test negative, the reality is the guy who had sex in Oct. after his Oct 1 test results mean you have to wait 2-3 more months and get tested AGAIN and THEN you have to both trust each other to NOT have sex with anyone else during that time period. Since hiv can take up to 90 days to show up in high enough quantities to be seen on a test, being 100% sure you or your partner is negative means a level of committment at the OUTSET of a relationship that far too few men want to deal with.
Heck, its tough enough getting a guy to go out on a 2nd or 3rd date let alone have an honest discussion about hiv, testing and sex - most guys just either don't want to talk about it or might think you're "rushing" a level of committment that they're not ready to make.
Finally, i want to say very clearly that i do not believe that "sero-sorting" poz should only date poz and neg should only date neg because of what i posted above. If you are sexually active you are at risk. If you meet a guy and you hit it off, you still reallydon't know if he's telling the truth about his test results, the number of partners he's had since his last test, etc - it's about TRUST and since this virus is so crafty, it's tough to ever know for sure UNLESS you both make that committment to be 100% monogamous during the 3 months between tests. Oh, and how many single gay men do you know that will make that committment in a brand new relationship.
I also don't belive in sero-sorting because: SEPERATE BUT EQUAL never, ever works! If you belive in serosorting, do you know how man guys who tested NEG 3 months ago are going to get tested again if they belive they'll be villified and separated from the rest of the gay dating pool? They will lie out of fear of being ostrasized - and that is the REALITY for so many sexually active gay men.
They test neg, and even tho they play around, even practice safer-sex, they belive they are "clean" and can still say they are neg - even tho they know that the minute they have sex with anyone - their last test is null and void.
Untiil there's a cure, we'll all have to deal with HIV in some way. For both poz and neg men, the reality that hiv is out there (along with HPV, HEP C, Syphillis, Gonhorrehia, herpes, etc) means all we can do is stay informed, practice safer sex and ALWAYS support and embrace those living with hiv. Pulling poz men aside from the community is NOT a solution - it only fans the flames of denial, intolerance and the spread of disease.
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BobInTampa Wrote:For every horrible story of a poz/neg couple living with a black cloud of sickness, side-effects and pain, there is an equally uplifting story of a poz/neg couple living a full, happy and sexually fulfilling life together. HIV is a virus and how it effect each host is different. So we have to be mindful of keeping balance and compassion when we talk about this very important issue. Your bolded statement is false. If you contract HIV, you *will* face the same cascade of drugs and symptoms/side effects that all HIV positive people experience.
BobInTampa Wrote:Finally, i want to say very clearly that i do not believe that "sero-sorting" poz should only date poz and neg should only date neg because of what i posted above. If you are sexually active you are at risk. If you meet a guy and you hit it off, you still reallydon't know if he's telling the truth about his test results, the number of partners he's had since his last test, etc - it's about TRUST and since this virus is so crafty, it's tough to ever know for sure UNLESS you both make that committment to be 100% monogamous during the 3 months between tests. Oh, and how many single gay men do you know that will make that committment in a brand new relationship. You are throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
Perhaps we should search for a man with the maturity and self-discipline to avoid random hook-ups for at least three months? If the guy you're dating can't limit himself to one individual for a short period like three months, how the hell is he going to maintain a long-term relationship? He won't, and you'll end up burned.
I know young men who are more than willing to wait, for the right guy. And you can determine the right guy without having anal sex on the first date.
BobInTampa Wrote:I also don't belive in sero-sorting because: SEPERATE BUT EQUAL never, ever works! False. It works INCREDIBLY well with infectious disease. Saving Human Race > Your Feelings. We do this all the time in hospitals, to prevent deadly diseases from spreading to the general population.
Do you also think we shouldn't quarantine people with deadly contagious diseases in the hospital, because "SEPARATE BUT EQUAL never, ever works"?
BobInTampa Wrote:If you belive in serosorting, do you know how man guys who tested NEG 3 months ago are going to get tested again if they belive they'll be villified and separated from the rest of the gay dating pool? They will lie out of fear of being ostrasized - and that is the REALITY for so many sexually active gay men.
They test neg, and even tho they play around, even practice safer-sex, they belive they are "clean" and can still say they are neg - even tho they know that the minute they have sex with anyone - their last test is null and void. By that logic, NOBODY should get tested because it won't matter since they're fucking a different guy every day. Why bother with testing at all, if serosorting doesn't work?
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Bob (in tampa),
Most HIV+ men are really, really good at wearing a mask in public. Few actually reveal their day to day life with living with 'IT'.
I rarely speak about the negatives of my relationship when it comes to the HIV in our home. I usually fluff if up, put on a big smile and pretend to people that its all ok. I shared it here only because this side of the issue is rarely talked about, and when an HIV negative person is contemplating potential relationships with HIV+ people, they need to know what they are in for beyond merely getting a positive status.
The first 6 years after my partner came home 'failing the test' he demanded that no one knew. None of our friends, none of his family.
On top of telling his dad that all of these new medications he was taking were 'Allergy Meds', he also concocted a massive story on how well we were doing in our relationship and in bed. To believe him in those days I was superman, and we were going at it like rabbits on Viagra.
I'm willing to bet that if you know a mixed status couple, they are not telling you the whole story, and are most likely lying more than you think.
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so if i read all this right:
its not possible to know if your date is hiv+
-the incubation time of the virus plus the latency of the body building up a detectable level of anti bodies means you need to abstain from sex for a long time and be tested a few times during that time. no one is going to do this.
yes (even tho protected sex) it comes down to personal preference because:
-you can date someone who is hiv+ and knows his or her status
or
-you can date someone (plausible worst case) who has an extremely low viral count and didnt know he or she was hiv+ but "just tested"
rules in a relationship unprotected sex:
1) its not the worst thing to sex another
2) totally bad not to mention it
3) totally bad to harp on #1 after infraction of #2.
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HIV neg dating HIV pos
