Is it wrong to demonize "Rosary Rattlers" as they are sworn enemies of GLBT?

[East]

Do you think those of us who fight for GLBT rights are having fun? No, we are scared. We understand the personal price we can pay for our action while "do nothings" like yourself sit on the side lines and pontificate. Yet you get to enjoy the benefits of our efforts.

There is no way I am not going to support you when you have the guts to say this Wes...I might not say it but if I am being honest I think it and agree with you. I was going to say what I am about to say when I read this thread last and I thought...nah...let it go...but you inspired me so here it goes...

I forget who brought it up in this thread about the "real way" change has been made and it wasn't through anger and even though I was there and I have fought for my principles my whole life and been very active...I almost believed it myself because it sounded so nice...and then I remembered the truth and that may be one persons idea of the truth and many people's actual experience of the truth but I can tell you personally there is another group of people who have fought and another version of the past.......

I had three separate battles with the police and I was "in their face" and quite aggressive....I am not easily intimidated....I could elaborate but in the end the Police Officers (the whole department) got sensitivity training in dealing with the GLBT people of which we all benefit...and there was alot of anger from me personally and at the time there were only a few of us who fought back while the ones who did nothing had alot of criticisms and tsk tsk's. The Police routinely targeted and attacked us and we fought back...none of this turn the other cheek...change will come crap. I felt then as I feel now that if you are a public servant and you are being paid with my tax dollars you will not harass me or disrespect me...and I made sure it was a policy...personally...I know this for a fact because I was there personally with ALL of my anger.

I am thinking maybe the people who want acceptance are the ones who think keeping quiet is the best approach. I have never wanted acceptance...I simply do not care and honestly I do not ask for something I am not sure I can give. There is alot of heterosexual behavior I despise and do NOT accept on any level. I want equality under the law for myself and for everyone who comes behind me...and sometimes you do have to fight.

What you said above Wes sums up how I feel as well and I thank you for saying it.

[Inchante]

Well, you see, now we have found your problem. Oh, in a utopian world, or the NICE bubble many human sheep dwell in, you would be correct.

But, accepting human beings for the violent, self-serving, manipulative bastards we are, NO WAY. This is why advertising agencies and corporations have so much power. While you are out picking flowers, we are programming you on what breakfast cereal to buy or politician to elect. We know what reality is, and we can back up that opinion with research and facts. We are business people and we are very thorough when it comes to spending corporate monies.

There are over 2,000 Google Searchs on "deamonizing enemies" and here they are. You have some reading to do. http://www.google.com/search?q=Deamonizi...=firefox-a

Who do you think develops terms like "fag," "spic," or "Rosary Rattlers." Hint, it is not us in advertising, it is everyday people. Even if people do not use these hate words, we have them in our heads. If we are going to take someone down, like we plan to do with the pro-illegal alien Mexican-Americans who voted against GLBT marriage, you can expect disgusting things like this utube and in return we can expect things like these graphics.

Don't shoot the messenger, come out of your ivory tower. This comic little bit of hatred came from a Republican graphics house, and seems to have quite an emotional effect on anyone who sees it. Do I approve, of course not it cloaks a nasty issue with more hate. Will I personally use it to advance the cause of GLBT marriage? When the time comes - without a doubt. Fortunately, this is not that time, I am just offering a sample of what we have in our bag of tricks.

While La Raza, (legally listed as a lobby in Washington, D. C.) continues efforts to make our border States a province of Mexico, they should be reminded of the Mexican American in the War in the 1840s. The United States won that war. We forgave Mexico all its debts. And, paid $28,000,000 for the border as it now stands.

Yet, Mexico continues to strive to dominate the southwest U. S. with their culture. They have not assimilated to American life. We have 12,000,000 Mexican illegals, or soldiers if you will, within U. S. borders. These are facts that can be used to "educate" Latinos about their role in the United States, and what they owe GLBT politically, specifically gay marriage.

So, well all the holy Joes sit back and point their fingers, we realists are going to go out and try again for gay marriage. This is where the rubber meets the road. Anyone not on board is expendable. No, I am barely involved in this effort at all, but I will send a check, and I will vote.

Is it just me, or do you think just maybe the United States is in for more problems with Mexico?
The GLBT problem with Mexican American voters is just a part of a bigger mess.

[Bowyn Aerrow]

Wes you keep on making the assumption that the rest of us are not or have not done anything.

Tell me son, where were you when we were fighting to keep our jobs, stay out of mental hospitals, institutions and prisons? Where were you when AIDS was the silent disease in DC? How many petitions did you get signed to get the compromise of Don't Ask Don't tell which replaced a staunch absolute policy of them asking and you having my law to answer truthfully, if you lied you faced criminal charges and were discharged dishonorably, if you told the truth you were discharged dishonorably.

What about the hundred, thousands if not tens of thousands that were discriminated against and kicked out of houses and apartments for being 'that way'.

Gay publications, Out, Advocate and even the porn - how many signatures and bills did you personally bring into being to get such publicans recognized as freedom of speech? Not too long ago not only was it illegal to publish such stuff it was also a crime to possess it.

Again I ask, where were you?

This gay marriage thing is only a minor - very minor - issue compared to everything else that has been won by us, the older generations that went on before you and laid the foundation that even makes it possible for your generation to even hope to see gay marriage.

I think you are pissed off because you missed out on the good old hard days where EVERYTHING was a struggle and a fight to win. Now you have so few issues left to 'win' that you are reverting to being a drama queen to make it look bigger than it really is.

[Genersis]

Actually, I posted this thread, but there was already a side conversation in the PMs about the subject that found it's way onto the forum. You are a minority of one or two against, whom I consider basically disloyal to our cause. I have been out of town, off the computer for two days, this thread did not continue on because of me.

Do you think those of us who fight for GLBT rights are having fun? No, we are scared. We understand the personal price we can pay for our action while "do nothings" like yourself sit on the side lines and pontificate. Yet you get to enjoy the benefits of our efforts.

I think bowing out of this thread is a good idea for you.

The thrust of this subject has been covered, but there are a few extraneous details that need to be mopped up. I am sure the rest of us can handle that.

You may be sure that if you pull that "turn the other cheek" crap on me, you will get slapped just on the general principles that your kind are gutless, freeloading sheep.

Please forgive the tone of this post, it was not my intention to be rude.

"Gutless freeloading sheep"?
All you have done is repeatedly attack latebloomer all because he is a catholic and that he wont stop being a catholic.
Because, you know, you can't possibly be catholic and support GLBT rights.
He's clearly stated his stance on gay rights.
All because you don't agree with him, you've been bullying him, why?
What will that accomplish?
He hasn't said ONE THING to anger or upset you.
While you go off accusing him of being a slave to the pope, a mindless sheep, and closet-case when he's said the complete opposite on all three.(by closet case, i mean ashamed of his sexuality, not that he isn't out)

Seems like you've just found one of the people you want to "destroy".
Notice how your efforts have done fuck all bar cause aggravation?
You really think if you did the same to someone else, that they will think better of, or be less likely to oppose gay rights?

You may as well say every GLBT person who doesn't support destroying our movements enemies by any means possible is a free loader to the movement.
That's definitely what it seems like you are suggesting.

We don't NEED to destroy our enemies.
We're doing just fine in the political arena.
Changing peoples minds just takes time.
Trying to destroy our enemy's rights is just plain wrong and COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE to our cause. It would just create MORE opposition to the GLBT. In both real life and the political arena.

When are you going to understand that making the people, who's minds need to change in order for us to win these rights, HATE us, ISN'T going to help?

[WesHollywood]

There is no way I am not going to support you when you have the guts to say this Wes...I might not say it but if I am being honest I think it and agree with you. I was going to say what I am about to say when I read this thread last and I thought...nah...let it go...but you inspired me so here it goes...

I forget who brought it up in this thread about the "real way" change has been made and it wasn't through anger and even though I was there and I have fought for my principles my whole life and been very active...I almost believed it myself because it sounded so nice...and then I remembered the truth and that may be one persons idea of the truth and many people's actual experience of the truth but I can tell you personally there is another group of people who have fought and another version of the past.......

I had three separate battles with the police and I was "in their face" and quite aggressive....I am not easily intimidated....I could elaborate but in the end the Police Officers (the whole department) got sensitivity training in dealing with the GLBT people of which we all benefit...and there was alot of anger from me personally and at the time there were only a few of us who fought back while the ones who did nothing had alot of criticisms and tsk tsk's. The Police routinely targeted and attacked us and we fought back...none of this turn the other cheek...change will come crap. I felt then as I feel now that if you are a public servant and you are being paid with my tax dollars you will not harass me or disrespect me...and I made sure it was a policy...personally...I know this for a fact because I was there personally with ALL of my anger.

I am thinking maybe the people who want acceptance are the ones who think keeping quiet is the best approach. I have never wanted acceptance...I simply do not care and honestly I do not ask for something I am not sure I can give. There is alot of heterosexual behavior I despise and do NOT accept on any level. I want equality under the law for myself and for everyone who comes behind me...and sometimes you do have to fight.

What you said above Wes sums up how I feel as well and I thank you for saying it.

Anger is the key word here. It is something we GLBT have in common with the 99ers. Someone said, "If you are not as mad as hell, you do not understand what is going on."

In he end, (and even people who want to die), find they have a desire to survive even if they don't mentally want to. This happens to people in Oregon and Washington State who have established a legal right to take the lethal injection, yet their body fights on to live. Survival may be an instinct we can not control.

The ones in this website who get all philosophical, but offer no action are the ones that will find that when they have need, no one will help. We reap what we sow. Those who participate politically and sacrifice for others will always find some door will open to deal with their problems.

Bottom line for me, anyone who is against GLBT marriage rights goes right to the top of my destroy list. We will single them out as expendable. Like my rebellious 60s liberal grand pop says, "If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem." That is what bare-knuckle, politics, Chicago style is all about. It is reality. We do not turn any water into wine here.

[WesHollywood]

Well, you see, now we have found your problem. Oh, in a utopian world, or the NICE bubble many human sheep dwell in, you would be correct.

But, accepting human beings for the violent, self-serving, manipulative bastards we are, NO WAY. This is why advertising agencies and corporations have so much power. While you are out picking flowers, we are programming you on what breakfast cereal to buy or politician to elect. We know what reality is, and we can back up that opinion with research and facts. We are business people and we are very thorough when it comes to spending corporate monies.

There are over 2,000 Google Searchs on "deamonizing enemies" and here they are. You have some reading to do. http://www.google.com/search?q=Deamonizi...=firefox-a

Who do you think develops terms like "fag," "spic," or "Rosary Rattlers." Hint, it is not us in advertising, it is everyday people. Even if people do not use these hate words, we have them in our heads. If we are going to take someone down, like we plan to do with the pro-illegal alien Mexican-Americans who voted against GLBT marriage, you can expect disgusting things like this utube and in return we can expect things like these graphics.

Don't shoot the messenger, come out of your ivory tower. This comic little bit of hatred came from a Republican graphics house, and seems to have quite an emotional effect on anyone who sees it. Do I approve, of course not it cloaks a nasty issue with more hate. Will I personally use it to advance the cause of GLBT marriage? When the time comes - without a doubt. Fortunately, this is not that time, I am just offering a sample of what we have in our bag of tricks.

While La Raza, (legally listed as a lobby in Washington, D. C.) continues efforts to make our border States a province of Mexico, they should be reminded of the Mexican American in the War in the 1840s. The United States won that war. We forgave Mexico all its debts. And, paid $28,000,000 for the border as it now stands.

Yet, Mexico continues to strive to dominate the southwest U. S. with their culture. They have not assimilated to American life. We have 12,000,000 Mexican illegals, or soldiers if you will, within U. S. borders. These are facts that can be used to "educate" Latinos about their role in the United States, and what they owe GLBT politically, specifically gay marriage.

So, well all the holy Joes sit back and point their fingers, we realists are going to go out and try again for gay marriage. This is where the rubber meets the road. Anyone not on board is expendable. No, I am barely involved in this effort at all, but I will send a check, and I will vote.

Is it just me, or do you think just maybe the United States is in for more problems with Mexico?
The GLBT problem with Mexican American voters is just a part of a bigger mess.

Didn't quite follow your parallel between the problems of Stanley in Street Car Named Desire, and the hard-ball politics of GLBT marriage. If you are drawing a parallel between the two, I would say it is sad that people have to turn to animalistic violence to make a point, but it is none-the-less it is a real part of life as we know it. We need to understand it, and use it with this GOD-given tool of violence coupled with anger in a positive way to accomplish worthy ideals. If God did not intend us to use these tactics, why did he give us the skills to use them?

[WesHollywood]

"Gutless freeloading sheep"?
All you have done is repeatedly attack latebloomer all because he is a catholic and that he wont stop being a catholic.
Because, you know, you can't possibly be catholic and support GLBT rights.
He's clearly stated his stance on gay rights.
All because you don't agree with him, you've been bullying him, why?
What will that accomplish?
He hasn't said ONE THING to anger or upset you.
While you go off accusing him of being a slave to the pope, a mindless sheep, and closet-case when he's said the complete opposite on all three.(by closet case, i mean ashamed of his sexuality, not that he isn't out)

Seems like you've just found one of the people you want to "destroy".
Notice how your efforts have done fuck all bar cause aggravation?
You really think if you did the same to someone else, that they will think better of, or be less likely to oppose gay rights?

You may as well say every GLBT person who doesn't support destroying our movements enemies by any means possible is a free loader to the movement.
That's definitely what it seems like you are suggesting.

We don't NEED to destroy our enemies.
We're doing just fine in the political arena.
Changing peoples minds just takes time.
Trying to destroy our enemy's rights is just plain wrong and COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE to our cause. It would just create MORE opposition to the GLBT. In both real life and the political arena.

When are you going to understand that making the people, who's minds need to change in order for us to win these rights, HATE us, ISN'T going to help?

Let's take a breath, and step back a moment.

While there is a lot of anger in this thread. Each member has the choice of entering it or ignoring any thread. This thread is not MANDATORY viewing.

When emotion lets loose the flack and rants are a part of it. In the end some will learn from this experience. Others will rethink their positions. Still others will simply vent on the subject. This is a message board, people come here for entertainment regardless if it is lightly "This or That" or a real gut level dialog on gay marriage. By the way, I can provide links that Catholics have done way more to "destroy" GLBT than we have ever done to them. But, the times they are a changing!!!

The title of this thread is; Is it wrong to demonize "Rosary Rattlers" as they are sworn enemies of GLBT? It is simple direct and to the question. And, and is a clue to all that there is controversy here. We are in a GLBT web site, not a RCC or "Dignity" website. This thread is a discussion among GLBT about GLBT rights, and Catholics standing in the way. There should be 100% agreement here about GLBT political direction ie; Get gay marriage into law, and on the books in all 50 States. Anyone who found anything in this thread "shocking" needs a reality check.

You say members were bullied. I say we have Papists within our threads in GaySpeak.com. These "Catholic friendlies" remind me of alcoholics who say, "I quit drinking except for the six martinis at lunch." These posters are confused and disingenuous.

I literally saw a Catholic crying in the backroom of a gay bar while he was sucking cock. The guy did not need a keyboard, nor a Pope, he needed a shrink. Are you willing to give up your right to marry someone of the same sex because some unstable Catholic Queen can not get their head together? The message to them is "You are either with us or against us." There is no "maybe" on a political ballot.

I hope the owners of GaySpeak.com are pleased about the way this thread has come off. We like you guys happy!

[pellaz]

message to some senior LGBT:

For a group of people who's symbol is a rainbow there is a lot of hate coming from organized religions. There are more options for a gay today than ever before so why would there be any interest in joining a formal religion. There will be a whole generation of LGBT that will never see the inside of a church.

[WesHollywood]

message to some senior LGBT:

For a group of people who's symbol is a rainbow there is a lot of hate coming from organized religions. There are more options for a gay today than ever before so why would there be any interest in joining a formal religion. There will be a whole generation of LGBT that will never see the inside of a church.

[Zip]

I have been jumping around this thread, and as a newbie see you guys can take your posting very seriously. I would like to chime in with the hard-liners on GLBT marriage.
Philosophical conversation is enlightening to a point, but the direction toward GLBT marriage is clear, it is our right. Anti-gay forces are trying to keep this issue out of the Supreme Court because they know they will lose there. Pushing GLBT marriage down to State level is an effective delaying tactic.