"Friendzone" unbiased advice?

[KB83]

Hello everyone, it's been quite a while since I've been active on this forum.

I'm in need of some unbiased advice , so here it goes...

I met this guy at our local gay social ( I'll call him Bob for a name reference) ,. Bob and I had extremely good conversation , I felt a connection. At the time I had interest in someone else and decided to get to know this new guy as a friend. He invited me to go out with a small group of guys/friends who meet weekly from the main social. Bob was very kind and always made strong effort to make sure I was comfortable at these socials. I was the "new guy" attending these events.

So I got to know Bob more personally over a two month period of hanging out in the small group.

The guy I was interested in previous to Bob turned out to not be what I was looking for. ( no hard feelings) . So I decided to invite Bob out to dinner to get to know him more personally. I started to recognize that Bob was just what I've been looking for.

Over our first dinner we both admitted that we have interest in each other. He was upfront that a month after meeting me (when I was not perusing him ) he started to date a guy who he has had a crush on for several years. I guess this guy that Bob had a crush on recently got out of a LTR.

I decided because of the magnetic connection Bob and I shared, I decided to continue to get to know him. He agreed and thought it was worth exploring to see where things go.
" I know I could have been smarter and waited" yet I didn't want to miss my chance either.

So after a couple more dates he invited me to his place for dinner and a movie. He cooked and the conversation lasted way into the early morning! We talked about things I've never talked about with others. The full spectrum of healthy open communication... He kept saying to me he has told me things he has never told anyone. He invited me to spend the night.
I played the responsible card and said because he still has a thing with his crush that I shouldn't stay. He told me he had a feeling it wasn't going anywhere with the other guy. I decided to stick to my guns and did not spend the night ( I wanted to so badly).

Weeks later we went to a party together and he drove, he invited me in when the night was over. He invited me in and he finally made a move and held me tightly on the couch. I stayed the night, we cuddled all night long... He was respectful and we did not sleep together.
I felt so much peace... We kissed but I held back a little, I had shitty breath because we ate pizza and drank beer all night at the party. I also didn't want to rush and get hurt.

So we went on a couple more dates after and continued to get to know eachother.
Yet he started to pull back, he is a shy guy. I finally learned that I needed to take the lead, it's hard though because publicly he is reserved with his affection, I was respectful of that.

He recently has been stressed with work related issues. So I decided to take him to a carnival for fireworks. It was a nice time, he dropped me off home and gave me a hug. I wanted to kiss him but I didn't. Then I decided to ask him about us, I was looking to see what he was feeling.
I didn't want to jump into a relationship, I was happy with the slow pace. Yet I felt it's been months and I needed at least some direction.

He then started to say he wanted to be just friends, he said he wasn't sure what he wanted. He spoke about how his work has been stressful and that it's been a hard year for him.
I was crushed! I really like this guy but I was just holding back in fear of getting hurt. I also felt he needed to do what he needed to do with the other guy.
I got emotional, not crazy emotional but I naturally felt rejected. I left by saying " I guess you don't have to text me when you get home" . It was selfish because the whole point was to give him a nice night out... Bad timing on my part!

He text me saying if I have a change of heart that he will always be here and that he cares about me.

I responded and agreed to talk to him about things (we did over the phone)
He said he thought I wrote him off... I was really just feeling rejected. He said I sent mixed signals and that it seemed like I only wanted to be friends.
I explained my reasons and feelings he seemed to understand. I asked him now that he gets where I was coming from... Where do we go from here.? He said we can just continue to get to know each other and see where it goes without defining it.
I agreed as I really like this guy!

I decided to step up my game and be more domineering.
I asked him to go on a surprise adventure with me... I wanted to take him hiking.
He agreed to go with me, I didn't tell him what I had planned.

I've been under stress in my own life, work and friend bullcrap.
So it was a nice way for us both to get away.

During the hike I wanted to make a move but I was busy venting and listening to his stresses.
We sat together in the field and talked about life and things in genral.
I decided to talk about my feelings and that I didn't peruse him because I didn't want to get hurt. He said he feels it's more like a friendship... He said initially there was a spark but he thought I wanted to be friends. I asked if there was any chance we could rekindle that "spark"?
He replied that he has trouble with doing that in general. I decided to get close and hold him... He was uncomfortable, I could tell it was awkward for him. He went on to tell me he was stressed with work etc etc...

So I called him out and said if you are telling me that you are not in a place now to peruse a relationship and that you just want to be friends as a result of that. I asked then why is he open to the idea of a relationship with this other guy? He admitted that was slack and confusing. I said that I realize you're a nice guy and last thing you wanted is to hurt me but really you're just letting me down easy.

I told him I have a love for him and that I know deep down he is a great guy.

We have plans to see Tori Amos and a few other concerts soon . I really know he would be a good friend and honestly potentially a very close friend. I trust he is a genuine nice guy, he has been upfront about everything (indirect on some levels, but upfront)

I can't seem to turn off the love I have for him. I don't want friendship to feel like second best.
I know that no one can really tell me what to do... Yet I need blunt unbiased advice.

Please help

[East]

Blunt and unbiased?...eh? OK...

I would have pulled back as well and decided you just wanted to be friends. If I were him I would definitely assume you wrote me off as any kind of romantic interest long before the conversation.

I know a lot of people have all of these rules and if that is what works for you knock yourself out...but the rules would turn me off if I was interested in a guy. I see it as playing games

I don't really get all of the waiting or wanting to do something but forcing yourself not to...it sounds like something church girls do. If you were both feeling it...I don't understand why you felt the need to say NO...

I think you were acting like an acquaintance and/or friend versus a love interest.

[TwisttheLeaf]

Blunt unbiased advice....

Step up to bat or get off the mound, man.

You hesitated and hemmed and hawed your way out of "the hot zone" and into the friend zone by resisting your instincts.

PICK already. Friend or boyfriend. The wavering does nothing but hurt you, and hurt him. I would venture to guess that's the reason he backed off was the "ouch" of realizing his interest didn't return the same feelings. After experiencing it once, stepping out to get whacked with it again would feel pretty damned stupid.

Which means, if you want him as more than a friend? You're going to have to pursue him. And before you can do that you need to decide what -you- want then go with it instead of hesitating and wavering.

[50Plus]

Blunt unbiased advice ....

Shit or get off the pot.

I am a firm believer in open and honest communication to sort out problems - to keep them in front and eventually reach a conclusion. What you two are doing is circular. There will never be an end to it unless you change tactics. Stop the bullshit cycle. What is the bullshit cycle you ask? It is the cycle of wanting / not wanting / rejecting / loving / friending / bitching / talking / planning / cuddling / pushing / whining / etc. that you go through over and over.

Best advice. Be friends. You are 31, not 12. If friends develop in to lovers then AWESOME IT SHALL BE. If it doesn't, then an awesome friend came in to your life.

Just don't talk about it or talk about your feelings. Let it evolve. Let it be organic. Experience life, not plan a future. [OK, that last bit is my own bias]

I will now step down from my soap box. Apologies for any innocent forest creatures I may have injured.

[Cuddly]

He's upfront, so you should be too.

Have you told him that you're in love with him and would like to persue a relationship with him, but that you have held back to give him space to find out what he's doing with that old crush of his?
That's the essence of it, isn't it?

Seemingly you're a good match who's just misunderstanding each others' signals. According to you, he has been pretty clear about what he wants, but it appears that you have not.

[Adam]

He's upfront, so you should be too.

Have you told him that you're in love with him and would like to persue a relationship with him, but that you have held back to give him space to find out what he's doing with that old crush of his?
That's the essence of it, isn't it?

Seemingly you're a good match who's just misunderstanding each others' signals. According to you, he has been pretty clear about what he wants, but it appears that you have not.

This makes total sense. Do you have any idea how many promising relationships have been derailed by miscommunication?

People in general are often taken aback because if I want to know something, I ask. But in the long run, it saves time and trouble.

[Bowyn Aerrow]

I see a pattern of you not taking chances. Each time in past you had a chance to present him with signs of real affection, and you have carefully constructed a reason to not kiss, not hug, whatever.

Since the night you DID spend at his place was just cuddling.... I have to wonder what he said when he asked you to spend the night before that lead you to believe that it would be more than that?

Responsible... That is usually a good thing, however I have to wonder if you are not using it as a way to not commit here? What do you think?

From your own description, yes you have sent him conflicting information, and have been doing it for some time. However, you also fail to take those opprotunities that arrive to clear up the matter and declined.

I take it right now he is in a bad place, business issues or something... So yes, pursuing anything more may be the last thing on his mind right now because of those other stressors.

I suppose there will come a time when both of you are ready at the same time. Apparently when he was ready, you waved off, now you are ready and he has reasons to not go that extra mile.

My advice, give it time.

And, the next time you feel you want to give him a kiss, a hug, whatever, do it... Stop coming up with reasons to not show your feelings.

[Virge]

I agree with everyone above and thank them for answering before I did.

[Borg69]

While I agree with Bowyn Aerrow that you should take a bit more chances, I would also caution you against over analyzing any situation. It could have turned out that if you had sex with him that night, he still could have left you in the friend zone pining for that other guy and you're be here writing about how you'd been used.

It's possible that he's just not that into you, romantically. He's craving chocolate ice cream. You're vanilla. While an ok substitute, it doesn't take away the craving for chocolate that he has his heart set on. Perhaps you're a place holder meeting most of his needs, but not what he perceives ALL of them to be in that other guy.

It's not fair that he gave you mixed signals, but either road you took more than likely would have ended up at the same location of disappointment in this case.

[KB83]

Thanks guys, you have really stepped up to the plate and given me some great advice. I wish I had stepped up to the plate more confidently with this guy.

I've always been the "shy guy" and it's not only when dating someone, but just how I am naturally wired. Recognizing that over the years and how it's held me back, I've been trying to put myself out there more.

Because the guy I am interested in is also the "Shy guy" I think our signals just never where balanced.
I strongly feel very strongly about this guy,I feel in my heart it could be very healthy and nurturing.

I really did fail to step up and make moves, I recognize this clearly.

I've been hurt in the past ( I know we all have) , my last partner was actually a "certified sociopath" (No Joke) . He would wine and dine, pursue... and tell me everything that I wanted to hear. I blindly though it was organic and going well. Until I learned what a sociopath is and that it's actually not some joke thing.

I've been single over a year and a half and actually been going to therapy because I felt I needed to heal the damage from my ex with a little help ( Not ashamed to admit that) .

I am vanilla when it comes to starting a relationship, I am more dominate and chocolate once things take off. I guess I never really had to be dominate and pursue in previous connections... I've not learned to do this very well. I do think it's just because I am naturally shy...

My intention was never to play games, I thought because he had another guy and interest that It would not be wise for me to put myself out there completely. I guess I never thought of it as games, but just me being responsible of my own heart.

He keeps telling me he thinks the other guy is not going anywhere, he says that it seems like he just wants to sleep with other people. Bob also told me that the other guy in his past had a open relationship. When Bob has talked about his desire and moral stand point of monogamy... Why has he not friendzoned the other guy? it's because the other guy isn't vanilla and stepped up where I didn't I suppose.

It took me time to realize that because he is a shy guy that I needed to step up my game.
I really didn't have many opportunities because we where in the public eye a lot, he had expressed to me he doesn't kiss other guys in public. I was at his place the first time, didn't stay over (I should have) . Second time I did, it was great (could have kissed him more) . Third time we cuddled and he had to go to bed for work next morning so I left at midnight.

I really feel like this vacation together in Boston to see Tori Amos would be a opportunity to step up my game even though we talked about being just friends. Maybe I need to step up and be more risky even though it might be awkward at first.

I would love to be his friend but I really feel in my heart that he is meant to be more.

In past relationships or dating I have moved on and I know that it's important to move on...
Yet I know that in my heart I don't want to move on because I need to step up.

The only problem is his work stress, his life stresses, my life stresses.. timing... I try to be respectful and I know honestly that if it's meant to be more that it will be one day.

Yet in my past experiences once you hit friendzone, typically the friend element doesn't even end up working out. Things just fade away...

I don't want to loose him from my life all together and I guess that is the only reason why I would be his friend, yet that is settling and my lack of domineering shyness wins in that element.

I realize no one can tell me but again opinions do help me "see outside of the box". Would making a move be not respecting his desire to be just friends? When I am in the hotel and I realize oh he ordered to beds, maybe I will crawl in his bed and hold him tight and step up.

Thanks guys for your guidance, I really do love this forum and I admire that you can be blunt and tell me what I don't want to hear.