No advice sought as such - this is a rant

[LONDONER]

Isn't GS just wonderful? You can just post a rant to get things off your chest, not expect any replies but get lots of positive comments and wise advice and all for free. Long live Gayspeak!

[MikeW]

OK. I won't answer all of that because the only response I'd get would be that I'm being overly negative/not accepting responsibility for anything anyway.

Ok, now we can add "defensive" and "defeatist" to the "overly negative / not accepting responsibility" overview.

Look, as I said, I don't know you... I only know what you've said here and even then it's my reading of it. And what I'm reading reminds me a lot of myself at a much younger age. I blamed everyone for everything wrong with my life. And when other people tried to point this out to me, tried to point out how this in itself was self-defeating approach to my problems, I'd get defensive about it and say pretty much what you said above, word for word.

All I'm asking you to do is look at what you've said and ask yourself the question, do I have something to learn from *the way* I represent this problem? Because the way we represent problems to others is probably very similar to the way we represent them to ourselves, in our own minds, right? It is the way we *think,* the way we "frame" a problem, the "story" we tell ourselves about what is real, what the truth of a situation is.

Well, but if we want to change the outcome of a problem we're dealing with, perhaps we need to re-ask the question, re-frame it, find a new and better explanation for "why" nothing we do ever seems to work.

We can not change other people. We can't control the way they respond or react to us. All we *can* control (and even then just barely, IMO) is how WE look at and understand things, and, thus, how we respond to other people and how we deal with our problems.

[JohnSomebody]

I totally agree with MikeW's last response to this post because it took me back to a recent situation with a guy whom I really found appealing and was excited about establishing a connection for at least a possible friendship with him. Unfortunately...he was moving really fast and when this guy would send me messages which all sexual...what floored me was when he mentioned that he had developed a huge crush on me and yet...because in my profile pic...I had a cap on which covered the majority of my facial features and the other pics of me were too dark of lighting or I had dark glasses on for him to really have a good look at my face. Now...the first thought that came to my mind was then...how in the hell did you developed this huge crush on me???...haha..Nonetheless...he became very persistent on hooking up with me and when I politely found ways to decline him just to let him know that things were moving too fast...He got really angry with me and instead of finding fault in himself...He put all blame on me which made him create all kinds of insinuations about me that was not true. However...the blessing for me was that because he displayed this type of behavior confirmed to me that he was not worth the type of person I want to get to know and from his actions...I became well aware that it was "his world" and I am no more than a "squirrel" that may get a "nut" if I'm worthy of being in his presence...Haha...whatever...lol

[trywait]

Personally, this Forum is the closest thing to a "gay community" to which I belong,

Creat for yourself a life that gives you happiness and a sense of fufillment, and as you accomplish that goal people will start to notice and want to be part of that life.

~Beaux

wise words from beaux

[Sheppy]

I know this thread is a couple of weeks old, but it about covers the area I was going to post about.

I think the problem is that too many gay people are just, well, shallow and superficial. I've been on dating websites and only get messaged by people who were feeling horny, but then vanish once they've had their "fix". Go on the scene and there are plenty of people who will be more than happy to put you down or avoid you if you are not approaching some image ideal.

Look at Grindr for example. How many times do you see the word "No" followed by the likes of fatties, obese, weird, headf*cks, old, whites, blacks, camp etc etc? The problem is that there are too many gay people chasing Mr Perfect, mostly based on looks, and in the process are missing Mr Right/ Mr Good Enough. Sure, people have their preferences in terms what they are looking for, but generally they are looking at the wrong thing.

Let's take my last partner. He wasn't exactly an oil painting (I'd say neither am I), but we made each other laugh, cared for each other, argued - all the things you expect in a relationship. He also had depression which at times was a strain on the relationship, but we loved each other and I stood with him through his "bad" times, because that's the person I am.

Now a couple of years ago my dad was dying and I had to spend time looking after him. This was at the same time that my partner took a turn for the worse - he killed himself a day before my dad passed away. I lost absolutely everything and had PTSD.

Two years on and I'm getting my life back together. Why am I saying this and what has it to do with this thread? Well, all the help and support I had was and is from straight people who have been f**king amazing. And what support did I get from anyone in the gay community? Absolute sweet FA. Tried joining a couple of gay support groups who frankly did not want to know me.

I'm not being bitter or anything here, in fact far from it. What I've been through has made me a stronger person and I've made a couple of really close (straight) friends. But when it comes to the gay scene? Seems to me that the word "sex" is, for a lot of people, the sole definition of their lives - you can't be friends with some gay people unless they think they could have sex with you or you act as some trophy or fashion accessory.

So I'd say to the OP - don't change. just find some people who are not a bunch of self centered superficial a*seholes who like you for what you are.

[MikeW]

I think the problem is that too many gay people are just, well, shallow and superficial.

The problem I have with such statements is two-fold… First it puts it all in the context of a specific demographic "gay people," "too many gay people are _________" (fill in the blank with something negative). Using Grindr as an example of "too many gay people" being "superficial," I think, "well DUH… Grindr is a hookup app, what do you expect… sincere offers of friendship?"

As for "the scene" … well, WHAT "scene" are you talking about, exactly? The bar scene? The club scene? Again, what do you expect from such "scenes"?

Which leads to the second problem I have with this kind of statement… The person making it doesn't own anything about it. It is all about OTHER people.. what they do or don't do… not about the speaker's own participation in the problem. Apparently he is never shallow or superficial and would never think of judging someone or evaluating a potential friendship solely on appearance.

My experience with gay men is different from yours -- and likely this is because I haven't limited my experience of meeting gay men to "scenes" or bars, M4M ads, gay.com, and apps like Grindr and Scruff. I've met many gay men in situations where finding a sex partner was NOT the primary reason men had gathered together. Social events, political and charity events, even gay men's support groups. From these I have made friends who've been apart of my life for decades. And, no, they aren't all "ideal sex objects" (any more than I am). They're just good hearted men. There are several men like this right here on this forum.

Tried joining a couple of gay support groups who frankly did not want to know me.

Well, I'm sorry you had that experience and it makes me wonder, what kind of support groups were these? Were they facilitated support groups led by a professional counselor or therapist? If so, did he not try to include you in the group process? Were they on-going groups or drop-in groups? Why, exactly, did you stop participating in the groups? Were you asked to leave? If so, for what reason?

Superficial people are superficial -- and they come in all sizes, shapes, colors and sexualities. It IS true that we live in an imagist culture: That is, a culture where the "gloss" or "image" of a person place or thing often has more cache´ than whatever substance may lie beneath. That is the very nature of corporate capitalist culture -- and I agree it totally sucks.

But the points I'm making is simply that to couch it as being a specifically "gay" issue is misguided and ultimately self defeating. That is, even if what you're saying IS true… are you expecting "other people" to change just because you don't like what they do or don't do? You and I both know that is NOT going to happen, right?

So this isn't about "other people" … it is about me, about how I relate to other people, about how I feel about myself in relation to other people. It is about what I cannot change or be responsible for (other people) and what I *CAN* change and be responsible for: My own thoughts, feelings and actions. So what if other people are "superficial"?… what matters is not how they are, but how I am.

[Sheppy]

MikeW, thanks for quoting me. We could argue about this all day, but we'd just end up agreeing to disagree at the end of it.

I am quoting from personal experience. No. I don't expect other people to change - that was the point of my first post. What I was saying is that if the OP is coming across people who do not like him for who he is, then he should try and find new people who will like him for who he is. If people want to be superficial, then fine. I, and I suspect quite a few other people, do not want to know. But why should someone change because of other people's superficiality? That's not what I was saying - I was saying that he should avoid such people.

I remember reading somewhere that the gay community demand equality, yet treat their own like shit and, until they stop this, will be seen like spoilt kids wanting their cake and eating it (if you ever visit the UK, go to Canal St and watch how people look down on and slag others off for the clothes they're wearing, hairstyle, shape of face. It's sadly amazing).

That really hit home with me. I'm not going to change myself, and I don't expect other people to change - that was the point of my post and I agree with your last line.

But why, when I'm in straight bars or environments (and I think most people know what I mean by this), am I able to strike a conversation up, but in the same circumstances in a gay environment (again, I think people know what I mean), I cannot, even though my behaviour, demeanour etc has not changed? Yes there are exceptions - there always are, but for the majority it seems to hold true.

As for the group I was in, they type does not matter. Treating someone kindly, with humanity, decency and respect does not require any attributes besides being a (half) decent human being. I did not get that, nor would I ever treat anyone that way.

And that's what you get on Grindr and the like. I joined because I genuinely thought it was a dating site (niaive in hindsight but I've learned my lesson). Like I said, we have our likes and dislikes, but excluding them to all others? I remember being in a bar a bit lonely and spotted a guy sitting down at a table reading one of my favourite books. I went up to him to ask if he minded me sitting with him (in a friendly way) to which he said something along the lines of "here comes an ugly guy thinking he can cop off with a guy in a wheelchair because no-one good looking will". I didn't even notice the wheelchair, much less care about it. But that to me sums up the gay scene.

I'm glad that you have had different experiences to what I have had. i wouldn't inflict mine on my worst enemy. Like I said, we could argue about this all the time and, reading your post (I'm not being offensive or trying to start an argument) we would go in to such minutia that it becomes meaningless.

The OP has simply not met the right people. Hopefully he soon will who will like him for who he is, and he the same. Neither should have to change.

[East]

I am sorry that no gay person was there for you Sheppy.....but I am glad that some of your straight friends were there....

...but I can promise you having had to bury every one of my friends...and the ones I made after they died...and the ones I made after they died...just not all of the last two groups....that support from other gay men is staggering...and overwhelmingly positive and supportive...

This generation on those websites you visited... I have never been to them but I have a good mental picture ...many have spent and even lived their lives behind a keyboard...and there is much less person on person interaction. It helps to get a good picture of where you were before you paint gay men with such a broad brush...

One more thing..I hear so many things about people who go to bars...or have casual sex...and they are referring to me (and most always completely wrong)...but I don't take it too personally because it is easy to point even more fingers right back at them...if I was so inclined....

...but it is more interesting to see the good in people....and more satisfying....and it makes you a lot more attractive in general no matter what you look like...

[Buzzer]

I remember this same topic going around the same twists and bends in multiple threads going back well over a year or so now, OP.

I think given that this is the absolutely consistent experience you report, and complain about running into, you should really honestly consider if it is at all one of these two things:

1) You are going after goodlooking, shallow, superficial people and it's okay for you to value them on superficial criteria, but not okay when they reject you on those same criteria.

2) You are dodging ever seriously stepping forward to real dating or real relationships by seeking rejection. I know that you have, in the past, used all of these observations about "what you run into" when seeking gay men as a pretext for saying "maybe you should go back into the closet" or go back to dating women. It is probably easier to pursue connections with people online or over apps that you know full well will never go anywhere than it is to find something meaningful, and it would be very easy to do this on purpose just to experience a "taste" of a dating life, without any of the actual follow-through or reality.

Please consider if either of those apply.

[MikeW]

MikeW, thanks for quoting me. We could argue about this all day, but we'd just end up agreeing to disagree at the end of it.

No, there's no need to argue about anything. We're just expressing opinions. My beef is with the generalization of "gay people" or "the gay community".

...(if you ever visit the UK, go to Canal St and watch how people look down on and slag others off for the clothes they're wearing, hairstyle, shape of face. It's sadly amazing).

Of course I know exactly what you're talking about. Yes there are hen peckers in the gay world; I personally refuse to have anything to do with them. I've told more than one off on more than one occasion. I regard it is immature and a form of insecurity (putting others down in order to feel good about one's self). Again, my objection is with the generalization…. Not saying such people don't exist… I'm just saying this judgmental superficiality is not unique to some gay men. I've known plenty of straight women who do EXACTLY this. Straight men not so much, or at least not in that way… For them it is usually more of a macho attitude with which they expect their 'bros' to comply.

What I was saying is that if the OP is coming across people who do not like him for who he is, then he should try and find new people who will like him for who he is.

It wasn't clear to me that you were addressing the OP at all, really. I thought you'd kicked up this topic because it fit… "I know this thread is a couple of weeks old, but it about covers the area I was going to post about."

But why, when I'm in straight bars or environments (and I think most people know what I mean by this), am I able to strike a conversation up, but in the same circumstances in a gay environment (again, I think people know what I mean), I cannot, even though my behaviour, demeanour etc has not changed? … I remember being in a bar a bit lonely and spotted a guy sitting down at a table reading one of my favourite books. I went up to him to ask if he minded me sitting with him (in a friendly way) to which he said something along the lines of "here comes an ugly guy thinking he can cop off with a guy in a wheelchair because no-one good looking will". I didn't even notice the wheelchair, much less care about it. But that to me sums up the gay scene.

I understand your frustration with such a misreading of your intentions… I've had similar things happen (not always with gay men). I'm curious, how did you respond to that accusation?

On another note… my condolences regarding the losses you mentioned in your first post. I had several close deaths in a short period of time as well so I know how disorienting that can be. Congratulations for beginning to put yourself back out there in the world again… I hope you enjoy the forum; it can be a help at times.