Gays and Religion

[brian3924]

Hello,

Let me introduce myself, i am a Christian. I believe that everyone has the right to act upon whatever desires they have without the fear of government interference. That includes drug use.

However, as a Bible believing Christian there are concerns that Churches would be sued by gay couples if a church was to reject a wedding ceremony. My purpose here is to gauge your opinions on this matter.

There has been some misinformation flowing regarding Biblical beliefs about homosexuality that i would like to take the opportunity to clear up. Firstly, the Bible does indeed talk about homosexuality (contrary to the LBGT claims) and clearly defines it as sin:
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1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."
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And so if a homosexual couple was to approach a Bible believing pastor, and he rejected the weeding - would there be government interference? Would you want government interference (jail time, etc)? Currently Texas is moving to pass protection bills for pastors so that this question wont become an issue.

The question really is, do you want to be tolerated or accepted? Which then leads to, do you want to tolerate or accept Christians?

If not, what would be your expectation of Christians be? If the government ordered a pastor to be thrown into prison for 20 years for not marrying a gay couple- do you feel that the congregation should be ok with this? Are you asking us (Christians) to go against our convictions for your secular values?

In the end, laws are passed to reflect the will of the majority or the protections of the minority. Clearly Christianity has become a minority. But what is the end game? Is it "we wont bother you, and please dont bother us". Or is it "accept us, or please exit society"?

Thank you for reading, im sure it wasnt easy coming from the opposite point of view. But i feel that im being respectful and am simply curious.

[East]

I firmly believe in the separation of church and state...and it goes both ways....

I do not think ANY church should be forced to do anything that is against their beliefs...

To the gay couple who wants a pastor to marry them who doesn't want to...GET ANOTHER CHURCH!

However...once you leave the building...I do not think using the Bible to discriminate against anyone is OK. For instance...if you feel bad about giving anyone contraceptives or birth control pills...DON'T GET A JOB IN A PHARMACY!!!!

I don't even care much if a baker doesn't want to bake a cake for a gay couple..as long as they CLEARLY have a sign that says GAY PEOPLE ARE NOT WELCOME HERE...

..so gay people can proceed...or not....and yes..that can be legally challenged of course. I do think if they had a sign that CLEARLY stated their intentions...it would far less likely they would face legal action....but they would lose a lot of business and get a lot of unwanted publicity.

If they had a sign that said they wouldn't serve Black People...or Jews...it would be challenged...so unless they want to move to Egypt or Russia....they may have to face consequences for their actions in the US...

[Iceblink]

However, as a Bible believing Christian there are concerns that Churches would be sued by gay couples if a church was to reject a wedding ceremony. My purpose here is to gauge your opinions on this matter.

No, a church, a synagogue, a mosque, or whatever other type of worship place a religion has would not have to marry a gay couple. That is misinformation put out by those against marriage equality to try and scare people. Churches can legally refuse to marry people who have been divorced. Churches can refuse to marry people who lived together before marriage. Although there would not be many that would actually do it, churches can even refuse to marry interracial couples.

Think about this, although there has been legal protection in hiring based on sex for about 50 years, churches are still free to only appoint men as priests, pastors, or reverends. How many female Catholic priests have you heard of? They can get legally do that, but how long do you think Walmart of GM would get away with a policy of only appointing men into managerial positions?

One other thing to remember, a for profit wedding chapel in someplace like Las Vegas is not a church. It is a business.

[ceez]

you need to do more research on "the bible", read the same passages on an older version of the bible, then read them again on an even older version. then look up the verse in it's original text and research the translations. I'm pretty sure others will post here and shed some light on this, but marriage has long ago moved away from being a "christian" thing and just about anyone can get a license to wed or what ever you call it, I'm a little to drunk to look it up now and I'm already struggling to type this much. plus most couples would just find someone else to marry them, it seems like the most trouble has come from the people issuing the marriage license and not the pastor.

[brian3924]

I don't even care much if a baker doesn't want to bake a cake for a gay couple..as long as they CLEARLY have a sign that says GAY PEOPLE ARE NOT WELCOME HERE...

..so gay people can proceed...or not....and yes..that can be legally challenged of course. I do think if they had a sign that CLEARLY stated their intentions...it would far less likely they would face legal action....but they would lose a lot of business and get a lot of unwanted publicity.

If they had a sign that said they wouldn't serve Black People...or Jews...it would be challenged...so unless they want to move to Egypt or Russia....they may have to face consequences for their actions in the US...

Firstly, thank you to those who have replied thus far. I glad we can have this very real conversation without being defensive/ disrespectful.

I need some clarification about your post. The supreme court that "corporations are people" (which makes no sense to me). Regardless that seems to have incorporated religious freedom (the Hobby Lobby case). In your post you say that if a business made it very clear that they didnt serve homosexuals because of their religious beliefs, they "would far less likely face legal action". As for the unwanted publicity and loss of business; this would be a small price to pay compared to contradicting our faith.

In your second paragraph you say that if a business had a sign that they dont serve black people, etc - that they may face consequences for their actions in the US. So they may want to "move to Egypt or Russia."

The concern comes in is now the supreme court basically gives homosexuality a civil right status- equal to that of race. Obviously business cannot descriminate on the basis of race (even the Bible makes it clear that all men are created equal; regardless of what any "religious" institution that man has set up over the centuries). But if the fate of business that descriminate on the basis of race is essentially exile, would the same be for those that descriminate against homosexuals because of their religious beliefs?

I do remember some churches saying that it was against their religious beliefs to serve blacks during the civil rights movement. But Christianity as a whole embraced this movement. Heck, Martin Luther King was a pastor himself. So where does business run by Christians (like Hobby Lobby) fit in all of this?

[Justme]

I agree [MENTION=18508]East[/MENTION]. If a certain pastor or church refuses to marry ANY couple, find another one that will.
Whichever way the church goes, there is going to be fallout. I just think it's a battle that cannot be won. Acceptance is the only way, & as long as ppl are taught division-- be it religion, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, etc-- there will always be some form of social discord.

[Virge]

ooooooooooooooooooooooo I think you and I have met before in a different forum...and not a gay one... your lame quotes from the bible give that away.

#1 Looking at your LACK of history of comments and activity here on this CLEANEST and friendliest gay forum on the whole internet says volumes about you. You are not gay. In the past 24 hours there've been some deep and resolving discussions of the very topic you're trying are trying to twist and make into something that doesn't exist in reality.... but only in your cult's need to feel persecuted. You are more than welcome to attend the wedding of me on my man on July 11th so you can see what a """""gay agenda wedding """"""""" is all about. I'll even pay for your airfare and protect you from the 75% straight god loving human CONSERVATIVE human beings who will be there who support EQUAL rights gays.

#2 . NO two men or a a hundred thousand pairs of men getting a marriage licenses and getting the same tax benefits as every other ""couple"" is endangering your damned right to practice your damned religion. As [MENTION=18508]East[/MENTION]ie pointed out yesterday in here..... you and your type have done more to debase the supposed "sanctity of marriage" than anything that can be done by less than than 5% of the population.

#3 . As a USMC vet/wounded survivor of two tours in Afghanistan I can tell you there's not a a frog turd's worth of difference between the bullshit you are are trying to sell and their bullshit. All you are doing is putting the rubber stamp of your putrid holy scriptures on the cruelty and inhumane acts you and people like you want to impose on people who do not share your beliefs. you don't realize it but you are the American Taliban.

#4 . I just talked it over with my other half. He said to tell you if you give us the right to name a PROVEN judiciary conservative moderator for editing and production with a guarantee of 50% pro gay marriage and 50% your views we'll pay for a reasonable film crew and whatever...on the condition that everyone in the film crew puts forth as much in subcredits and details as they do about they do about the people they are videoing.... In other words no fair throwing up like "Jim Smith GAY arrested for asking an undercover policeman out on a date" without US having fair play to go through the backgrounds of everyone you bring to film out wedding.... level the fucking playing field or GTF off it.

I'm done.... and I didn't even use size seven....... oooooooooooooo do I need a high five

[WhatsInAName]

Christianity is not a minority in the USA. To believe that you either have a persecution complex or are wilfully ignorant of the world around you. I'd like to believe the latter because ignorance can be overcome by education.

You should remember that the US is a secular nation. Seperation of church and state and all that jazz. Afterall your nation was formed out of a rebellion against a country ruled by an ordained monarch, and many of the founding fathers expressed blatantly obvious atheistic views.

Sexuality is innate, like race. Religion is not.

Therefore sexuality rightly trumps religion in the eyes of the law.

You can choose to be any religion you like, you cannot choose your sexuality. Sure you can choose to deny it or embrace it, but that's about it.

With regards to gay marriage in religious settings. I am sure there are churches who would accept and marry gay couples, indeed there are no doubt homosexual priests out there. You would also do well to remember that a Church does not and cannot confer legal status on a marriage, only law does that.

[LJay]

A couple who wants to be married by clergy can find a person to perform the ceremony. If a particular clergy person chooses not to do so then it is on to the next.

You are writing from a position which amounts to, "Let's create a problem so someone will pick on us." Grow up and learn that not everyone cares about your particular view and that a civil law establishing marriage equality does not affect your religious beliefs. It is just there as a matter of civil law.

My parents were married by a magistrate. It was a matter of timing and expediency during the second world war. They were church goers and that they were or were not was not an issue at all. A couple of friends of mine were married in my living room by a magistrate. These marriages are valid in the eyes of the law. There are millions like them. Sorry, but you can't control the issue from the church because not everyone is going to submit themselves to church customs.

[meridannight]

If not, what would be your expectation of Christians be? If the government ordered a pastor to be thrown into prison for 20 years for not marrying a gay couple- do you feel that the congregation should be ok with this? Are you asking us (Christians) to go against our convictions for your secular values?

this is ridiculous. you're inventing jail time and sentences that are delusional. nobody's gonna put anybody to jail for this. we're not living in Nazi Germany.

why throw around exaggerations like this? to make it look like this would be a viable outcome? get real. stop spreading such nonsense, misinformation and your panicky delusions to other people.