I hate my appearence and feel unattractive...

[novice]

I don't care how much sex people have w/ however many people. Not my business. I don't care if gay men are mostly appearance oriented I just call them as I see them. But why not just admit it & not defend it? I'm not "judging" it I'm saying it is what it is.

I treat people with respect regardless of their appearance. Human beings are not just objects but in the gay world you'd be forgiven for thinking otherwise.

Maybe I am a shallow person who is just in denial & what I've seen/experienced has been strange anomalies that only I come across (?).

[JackTX]

I know that someone will say that someone will like my facial features or whatever. Well the thing is, the only guys who seem to have interest in me are guys I have no interest in. Usually guys in their 40's or 50's. Or guys who think I'm desperate when I'm not.

I'm curious why you discount older guys who are into you. If it's looks-based, this entire post has a special level of irony.

"I want people who don't want me." is a problem as old as humanity. Even great looking (by society's standards) people do this to themselves.

Did anyone ever tell you they thought you were desperate? I wonder where you got that part. Do you think everyone who isn't good looking by society's standards is basically in the desperate category? Do you think that other people mostly think that?

If someone seems into you, I wouldn't dig too deeply into why if you seem to share common goals or make each other happy.

Oh, and you're going to be 40 before you know it

[MikeW]

...Honestly though, looking back at the "peak" pictures... in most of them, I didn't even look that different or great. As you all said, my confidence made me feel attractive. And as a kid, I wasn't ugly as I thought before.

...Not exactly sure what to do now. I don't want to rely on someone loving me to make me feel good about myself. And I was single during my college peak so something else was going on there I suppose. A new opportunity for me. I don't have those anymore.

Well, I think you've hit the nail on the head there. Something inside yourself felt different when you were at your "peaks"... So, you know, you need to look at that more carefully, more objectively, actually study it. What was it about those times that had you "peaking" that way... so you felt more confident or focused or excited about living? This is a truly important question.

I say this as someone who has struggled with depression all his life... even as a child I was depressed. Back in those days adults didn't dope kids so much as they do nowadays so I didn't get "treated" for it... but I was. I didn't even begin to "deal" with it (seeing therapists) until I was around your age. By that time I was a total mess... and that didn't begin to really change until I was in my mid to late 20s.

So, part of the reason I'm replying here is, at 22, you're still "very young" (IMO... I'm sure you don't see it that way). And in part what I'm saying here is you're still rather immature. The whole original focus of this thread was on "appearance" ... which is, quite frankly, a rather immature thing to base one's sense of self-worth on.

But what I've quoted is, to me, the more relevant question: What excites you? Is there anything in your life that you feel passionate about? If so, what i is it? If not, why not?

And "passionate," I've found, can be rather subtle. For sure a lot of times it is anything *but* subtle, but sometimes it IS subtle. What I'm trying to say here is, sometimes we don't even NOTICE how some things -- very subtle things -- excite us.

...I just want to say one more thing, and it doesn't really involve changing anything about myself. I want them to invent a pill that makes me not care about what anyone says and that makes me confident. ...if I had those two things, I wouldn't need to change anything about myself. I know some people are naturally optimists like this, and I really wish that was me. But I'm not. I'm pretty much always a pessimist.

Yeah, but do you see the contradiction in what you've said? "Changing yourself" isn't just about changing your appearance. If you were able to take a pill to change your personality, that would still be changing yourself, right? Your "self" isn't how you look. Your self is how you SEE (and feel about) yourself... that's the whole point!

So how does one change that?

I'm going to go WAY out on a limb here because you and I seem to have a lot in common. It's difficult to be sure of that because all I know about you is what you've written here. I'm sure there are many differences between us... but there is enough commonality so far as I can make out that I'm going to take this risk. I'm going to suggest that you 1) STOP taking anti-depressants. You may want to wean yourself off them slowly but just discontinue their use. The reason is, I want you to be able to experience yourself, even at your lowest, directly without any chemical interference. 2) I want you to try some of the experiments I mentioned in my previous post. What turns you on? What makes you feel sexy or confident (even if it is only temporary). I'm not asking you to tell me or us here in the forum, I'm asking you to ask yourself this question -- and not just pose it as a thought in your head. Actually STUDY this in yourself. What "works" for you?

Finally, 3) I'm going to suggest (a step down from "recommending") that you consider some rather radical psychological intervention sometime in the relatively near future (before age 30) IF you don't begin to get a handle on your depression. What I'm thinking of specifically is experimenting with psychedelic drugs in a controlled environment (that is, with a semi-professional who knows what they are doing... such people do exist although for obvious legal reasons they are underground and keep a low profile). I'm suggesting this because they *can* be useful in certain instances. They (especially LSD and psilocybin) *can* show us things about ourselves, about our psyches, about the ways our minds work -- how our minds construct our perceptions of reality -- and what we may be able to do to change that for the better -- in ways nothing else I know of can. In this instance, the drugs are not treatments. That is, taking them repeatedly has limited benefit. Rather, they are more like experiential catalysts. They show us what is *possible*; beyond that it is up to us to find the means to actualize those possibilities in ourselves. (If any of that makes sense.)

SO, yeah, for sure, what you need to change is how you experience yourself! The question is, how the fuck do we do that?

My answer is simple: Research (study yourself) and begin to get outside your comfort zone. Find what excites you and GO for it. Why the fuck not? It's your life -- and right now, this moment, is every bit as much an "opportunity" as the day you set off for college. If you don't *experience* it that way, well, it isn't because today is objectively any different than *that* day, years ago. The difference is just IN YOU, in how you look at it, think and feel about it. That's all.

[MikeW]

I don't care how much sex people have w/ however many people. Not my business. I don't care if gay men are mostly appearance oriented I just call them as I see them. But why not just admit it & not defend it? I'm not "judging" it I'm saying it is what it is.

I treat people with respect regardless of their appearance. Human beings are not just objects but in the gay world you'd be forgiven for thinking otherwise.

Maybe I am a shallow person who is just in denial & what I've seen/experienced has been strange anomalies that only I come across (?).

I think it partly depends on what circles you run in. If, for example, your experience of "the gay community" is the guys you meet in bars, clubs, white parties, and on-line hook-up apps; then, yeah, for sure. OTOH, if you're experience is with a more mature circle who get together for more social interaction (rather than potential sexual interactions), your experience may be different.

But, yeah, I do know exactly what you're talking about.... and I was very much put off by it when I was in my early 20s. Not because I was ugly or anything (I was way cuter and hotter than I, myself, knew), but because that kind of superficial pecking order bullshit just turned me off. I regard it as very twisty psychological behavior that is both "oppressed oppressing one another" and "taking my anger out those who least deserve it" not to mention "competing with those I'm most attracted to." Like I say, "twisty" and mostly unconscious behavior.

[SilverBullet]

No, it wasn't an overnight thing. It was a process that took time. But I think ot was one of the most valuable things I ever did. How did I do it? A change of mindset, and a conscious effort to make that mindset a reality.

Here was the mindset. I came to the realization one day that I was stuck with me. No matter what I do, how I dress, where I go...I will be there. And as such, it was probably worth learning to love myself. After all, better someone you love hanging around than someone you dislike. And it occurred to me that I didn't have to be perfect to love myself. I have friends that I love, after all. And I like their good traits, and deal with their faults. And I don't care what they look like - I just like THEM.

So that was my first goal. Befriend myself. And that should be easy, right? I mean, I already like the same things that the guy in the mirror does. So I took that first step. What do I like? And whatever it was, I gave myself permission to like it - wholeheartedly and unashamedly. I started watching more cartoons, even if other people found that "juvenile"...because I liked watching them. I began drawing...not because I was good at it (I still suck at it), but because I enjoyed doing it. And on and on and on. And I started enjoying this stuff more and more. My attutude was "I like this stuff. You don't have to but I do." I was doing more and more stuff I loved, and that made me happier. In essence, I had become my own friend. And, like you do with a good friend, I began liking to see that guy in the mirror. Not because he became more physically attractive, but because I liked the guy inside him.

And a funny thing happened. My enjoyment was infectious. Even those who didn't share my love for my hobbies and interests still were attracted to my enjoyment. I gave off a positive vibe that people liked. As I started liking the guy in the mirror more and more, other people did, as well.

As I said, it was a process, but a very worthwhile one. Can you accomplish it today? No. But you can start it today.

Lex

Im glad I read your post before saying anything myself as my post was similar only not HALF as good!
AWESOME advise lex ^_^

[Buzzer]

Again, do you actually think that people VOLUNTARILY opt to exercise self-pity? Seriously if people think that's the case, they need their heads examined. Has it occurred to you that people who think like that do so because of years of being fed negative images about themselves?

The way you asked the question immediately gave away your (incorrect) belief that self-confidence is built off a lifetime of having people say nice things about you or expressing your attractiveness.

Self-confidence comes from you and it's something you decide to build. I think everyone in this forum could post 10 times that you are attractive and it wouldn't change a single thing about how you feel about yourself. You might get a fleeting high mood off it and then it'd be gone.

People who are invested in other people telling them they are attractive have something more like an addiction to that fleeting high... they don't have self-confidence.

[Buzzer]

Now...I will tell you a secret. The things we don't like about others and complain about is a reflection of the things we don't like in ourselves...almost always....

When someone complains about the "gay community"....they more often than not reveal who they are....and if you pay attention...it won't be long before the one who hates gay men judging them will be judging someone else..and they never see that they are part of the problem (and if you point it out...be prepared for the messenger to be shot)

It reminds me of the discussion that arises here and there of "what makes the way a guy hits on you creepy?" and the answer, so often, being "does the recipient find him attractive or not." It's amazing how many stories you hear about people having some "creepy old gay troll/nasty guy hit on me" would not be told as a creepy story if the teller thought the guy had been smoking hot. The only exceptions I could think of would be things that amounted to threatening or stalking. But I think even the threshold for someone feeling stalked would change based around whether they thought the attention they were receiving was from someone hot or not.

No one likes to hear it because no one likes to own up to their own flaws, weaknesses, or unattractive qualities. But I think you're right that the great majority of people who complain they're treated badly by the super hot people would, if they were movie-magazine generically goodlooking themselves, treat others the same way. And the fact that the story is so often coupled with "I do get attention but only from guys I am NOT attracted to" tends to back it up. No one ever seems to put two and two together and realize that they simply do to others what they feel the "hawt people" are doing to them.

[subdivisions]

...and I have found that the ones who complain about it the most are part of the problem...and most wouldn't want a guy like themselves...and are busy getting angry for being judged while they do the same thing to others....

People say that but honestly I'm the opposite. I would love a guy exactly like me. Problem is, like everybody else, nobody is exactly like me. So I have to compromise when choosing someone.

I don't "judge" other people as rigidly as I do myself. There are plenty of times I would've dated guys who on some "objective" appearance scale most would've said were less attractive than myself (but they were for w/e reason not interested).

This is catty as hell, but I hate when I see a really attractive guy with a guy who isn't... it's like damn, he's wasting himself on someone ugly. That could be me that's with him! And yes I know that train of thought is horrible.

Maybe I should qualify it by saying all the gay men I've met (or 99% of them) - maybe I just have incredibly bad luck & meet the wrong ones (?). It's an awfully bad ratio if there is some large amount of decent gay guys I've rarely encountered.

I have bad luck with humans in general. It's why I'm so anti-social.

I'm curious why you discount older guys who are into you. If it's looks-based, this entire post has a special level of irony.

It is sort of looks based. I mean I know some guys don't look their age. But a lot of men, and I hate to say this, but especially white men, age terribly. They become wrinkly and gross earlier on than most people of other races. And I'm white myself and I really fear getting older. That's partly why I don't get why so many guys of other races date older white men.

But that's not the only reason.

Did anyone ever tell you they thought you were desperate? I wonder where you got that part. Do you think everyone who isn't good looking by society's standards is basically in the desperate category? Do you think that other people mostly think that?

Honestly, yes I do sort of think that. And I'm sure that guys I hit on probably think I'm desperate too, even though I'm far from it.

As for everyone saying that I'll be wanting younger guys when I'm in my 40s and 50s... no I won't. I promise myself I'll only hit on guys around my age. Because I don't want to be the type of person I despise that annoys others.

[subdivisions]

But what I've quoted is, to me, the more relevant question: What excites you? Is there anything in your life that you feel passionate about? If so, what i is it? If not, why not?

And "passionate," I've found, can be rather subtle. For sure a lot of times it is anything *but* subtle, but sometimes it IS subtle. What I'm trying to say here is, sometimes we don't even NOTICE how some things -- very subtle things -- excite us.

Well music excites me. I've been told my music is horrible but whatever. Nothing else really excites me at the moment honestly.

1) STOP taking anti-depressants. You may want to wean yourself off them slowly but just discontinue their use. The reason is, I want you to be able to experience yourself, even at your lowest, directly without any chemical interference.

My parents won't let me go off my medication. Well, my dad will. He actually doesn't believe in medications or therapists. He thinks everyone should be able to handle life without them, just because he could when he was younger in his generation (though he ain't perfect himself and Generation X people have tons of problems). I don't agree with this, but whatever. He think depression is a hoax and is just kids nowadays being babied and spoiled and not learning to handle their problems. Honestly that may be part of it, but I can't undo that now. He think I am the way I am because he and my mom spoiled me or something.

My mom is neutral on the subject and doesn't care either way.

My step-mom, on the other hand... the opposite of my dad. Idk how they've been together for like 13 years honestly. But she thinks I'm completely psychotic and that I need to be on medication and see therapists regularly. I skipped an appointment once and didn't take a medication and she flipped the fuck out and said that she would kick me out of the house if I didn't go to my therapist and take my meds. So if I want a place to live, I need to keep taking them. Honestly she's a real bitch to deal with. I try to avoid talking to her when I can.

Finally, 3) I'm going to suggest (a step down from "recommending") that you consider some rather radical psychological intervention sometime in the relatively near future (before age 30) IF you don't begin to get a handle on your depression. What I'm thinking of specifically is experimenting with psychedelic drugs in a controlled environment (that is, with a semi-professional who knows what they are doing... such people do exist although for obvious legal reasons they are underground and keep a low profile). I'm suggesting this because they *can* be useful in certain instances. They (especially LSD and psilocybin) *can* show us things about ourselves, about our psyches, about the ways our minds work -- how our minds construct our perceptions of reality -- and what we may be able to do to change that for the better -- in ways nothing else I know of can. In this instance, the drugs are not treatments. That is, taking them repeatedly has limited benefit. Rather, they are more like experiential catalysts. They show us what is *possible*; beyond that it is up to us to find the means to actualize those possibilities in ourselves. (If any of that makes sense.)

I'm sorry but... hell no. I've never done recreational drugs and never will. These things can be dangerous, even if you don't think so or only have had good experiences with them.

However, my sister has been taking a natural plant supplement called golden root... it has properties that work as an anti-depressant. I'm thinking of trying it.

[MikeW]

Well music excites me. I've been told my music is horrible but whatever. Nothing else really excites me at the moment honestly.

Nothing else that you're *aware* of... but, alright, so music excites you. That's a good place to start. And who gives a fuck what other people *think* about your music? MUSIC is an art... that is it is a language of expression. SO... use it to express stuff that is going on in or meaningful TO YOU and don't give a rat's ass whether ANYONE else appreciates it or not. I'm not a musician, more of a visual artist, but I have at times *deliberately* created stuff that I knew was "outside the box" (outside most people's comfort zone, not to mention appreciation). But fuck them. It was FOR ME.. it was what I needed to do.

You need to stop think about what other people think of you and pay closer attention to what you think of yourself because that right there is the real problem as we've already established.

My parents won't let me go off my medication. Well, my dad will. He actually doesn't believe in medications or therapists. He thinks everyone should be able to handle life without them, just because he could when he was younger in his generation (though he ain't perfect himself and Generation X people have tons of problems). I don't agree with this, but whatever. He think depression is a hoax and is just kids nowadays being babied and spoiled and not learning to handle their problems. Honestly that may be part of it, but I can't undo that now. He think I am the way I am because he and my mom spoiled me or something.

My mom is neutral on the subject and doesn't care either way.

My step-mom, on the other hand... the opposite of my dad. Idk how they've been together for like 13 years honestly. But she thinks I'm completely psychotic and that I need to be on medication and see therapists regularly. I skipped an appointment once and didn't take a medication and she flipped the fuck out and said that she would kick me out of the house if I didn't go to my therapist and take my meds. So if I want a place to live, I need to keep taking them. Honestly she's a real bitch to deal with. I try to avoid talking to her when I can.

Well first off you say your parents won't let you... as if you're a child. You're not, right? You're over 18, right? I don't care if you're living with them or not. They have no legal authority to MAKE you take drugs. Unless you're incarcerated in a mental institution, if you want to stop taking medications you have every legal right to do so.

But as you write it becomes clear that it isn't your "parents" but specifically your step mom... Well, so, she has the power to throw you out of the house? Seriously? And why the hell would she even know what you were or were not doing if you didn't tell her? Why the fuck is anything you do ANY of her business at all?

Bottom line there is you need to get the hell out of your paren's house. No wonder you fucking depressed!

As for you dad, he's basically right but for all the wrong reasons. Everyone needs to learn to be independent and self reliant but that isn't always easy ... especially in this day and age. If I were your dad I'd be willing to cut you some slack and *work with you* toward that end, not blame you for not being there already. But, w/e, it is what it is.

I'm sorry but... hell no. I've never done recreational drugs and never will. These things can be dangerous, even if you don't think so or only have had good experiences with them.

LOL!!!! You've been totally brainwashed by the establishment on this one sweetheart. Are they dangerous? Yeah, well, so is driving a car; so is having sex with a stranger; so is walking down the street or even sitting at home doing fucking nothing. Life is full of risks... The questions to be asking are: Do the potential benefits outweigh those risks and can the risks be reduced. The answer to both those questions in this instance is definitely yes.

Apparently you don't know that a lot -- and I mean A LOT -- of research regarding the therapeutic benefit of psychedelic has been done both in this century and the last one. Do some research.

As far as "recreational drugs"... I'm not talking about "candy flipping". Look very closely at what I suggested: Controlled, moderated use with a practiced facilitator. This is a completely different thing than just dropping a hit of acid or taking some showrooms and going out to rave your ass off. Totally different.

But, just to play semantic devil's advocate here, look closely at the word "recreational".... TO RE CREATE. Isn't that what you want to do RE-CREATE your sense of self and sense of self worth? So, in *that* sense, "recreational drugs" is EXACTLY what you're asking for with your imaginary little pill that changes you without having side effects.

There is a TON of stuff you apparently don't know, having swallowed the "just say no" bull shit. Again, I'm NOT advocating the *irresponsible* use of illegal substances. There is a difference between responsible use and just fucking around without having a clue what the hell you're doing. The former means you've educated yourself and prepared yourself -- just like you learned to drive a car. The latter is just going joy-riding with no clue WTF you're doing.

However, my sister has been taking a natural plant supplement called golden root... it has properties that work as an anti-depressant. I'm thinking of trying it.

Yes, there are several natural plants that may help support your aim of getting out of your depression. Definitely worth looking into.

ETA... fucking auto correct ... uggg