Suicide.....a question

[Anocxu]

Funny how life can throw us in a loop...

I would never have suspected..
An individual that embraces every opportunity to encourage enlightenment and positivity... especially to strangers ... has been carrying this burden.

I am amazed, extremely impressed, yet saddened.

I cannot begin to empathize this struggle..

There is a difference between "Being Angry" and "Holding on to Anger"..

Holding on to anger takes so much energy....

In your case holding on to anger is denying your brother (and yourself ) peace.

I'm sure you loved him "unconditionally "<------

You have to forgive his decision.. this is the only way... It's bad enough you'll never forget it... It's even worse when you throw anger into the mix.

I am sure he would wan't you to be at peace.

I'm wondering what you'd be like if you were enlightened regarding this issue?
I can't imagine you being more Awesome than you already are..
Can you?

So you hate support groups... yet you have a group of supporters right here...

This could be an on going thread...
You could post your struggles here and we'd be happy to help you explore and heal.

I must say he was extremely handsome... omg!!!

Now i'm fucking furious!!!


I didn't get a chance to stalk him on Facebook...

*Sigh*

Hugs.






You have have a few choices here

[ceez]

some really good advice so far so I'll just add on to what's already been said. I don't know if you have ever been to that point but it's like you live everyday on edge and when you're there you forget about everything, it's like being at a loud party and you're ready to leave and all you can see it the door. I still have to reread some of the threads I've made here to bring myself back to reality some times.

Anocxu pretty much posted the main point I wanted to make, you have to forgive your brother to be able to fully heal and I love what RUoutthere posted, his memories will still live on. I lost my mother at age 11 and reliving the good times and feeling that energy helps me cope. I also wanted to ask if you thought about 1 on 1 therapy, there are some therapists out there that specialize in grief counseling.

[Beaux]

Donald killed himself when we were 18. Now, I am almost 44, and I feel no different now than I did then. I feel like he left me behind. I wish I could offer you something to hold on to, something that would make it make sense, but I've got nothing.
However, I'm still here. You are still here. We are, for lack of anything better, still here together.
Xoxo,
~Beaux

[East]

WOW...I am so grateful for all of the insight and advice...you have no idea....

I have a lot of thoughts but not a lot of time so I want to say a few things....

The way I work..I will do as much as I can on my own until I need advice..and then I use it ..quickly if possible, That is how I approached therapy as well...I couldn't even fathom going for years...I wanted to heal myself and move on....and that is what my goal is now...

Right away.. [MENTION=20947]MikeW[/MENTION] unlocked a door for me which is ironic because he thought he might not contribute anything I needed...and the opposite is true...

and [MENTION=20738]TwisttheLeaf[/MENTION] brought me in touch with how I actually felt about my brother....

...and so I have spent the past day processing it all....

I realized that I am not angry at him ...I am angry at myself.....

I WAS angry at him initially...but I think when I started putting flowers on his grave I must have gotten past it....but I still felt angry...and so...I assumed I was still angry at him....

I hate to say this to myself...much less out loud...but I knew subconsciously what he was going to do...and I did nothing....and I know looking back that I WAS helpless..and what was going to happen was inevitable....

I would have had to tell him what my mother probably did to him....I was almost sure of it...and I knew he couldn't handle it. When I divorced my parents and had nothing more to do with them...it hit him the hardest..and I was trying really hard to be respectful of his relationship with my mom..they were close...and I felt it would accomplish nothing....

...and I also thought she had changed with him...which is why I didn't say anything...and then I saw something that sent chills up my spine..and I realized that he got the same thing the rest of us did...maybe even worse....and he didn't have what it took to deal with it.

..and I hate myself for what I did...and I also know that if I had to do it over...I would do the same thing again..for the same reasons....I mean not telling him about our mom and dad...I would have helped him not commit suicide had he told me....

I am OK with hating myself at the moment...maybe forever....not really hating myself...but hating my decision....and I think I deserve to feel that.I hated that I didn't figure it out consciously.... I always thought it was my job to protect my brothers from my parents...from everyone and everything...and I failed miserably. Most of the time...I didn't really have a chance...but I did have a chance when he came to me..and I didn't realize it at the moment..I didn't take it...

He didn't tell me he was thinking about suicide...but looking back..I knew somewhere inside of me that he had already made the decision....and it will haunt me I suppose until I can maybe apologize to him....and myself...

I didn't know consciously though...and had he told me..I know I would have jumped in and done whatever I could...I am certain of it actually....I would have wrestled his demons for him if he gave me the chance....I am pretty good at beating the fuckers....but he never gave me the chance...and I think that is why I was angry at him initially.

It is weird going back and replaying the final conversation...like he knew it was the final one...and for the first time today I cried thinking about it....I never did before....

...and the thing is...if a stranger comes up to me and I can tell they are in trouble...I will roll up my sleeves and rescue them without a second thought...

..but suicide...I freeze. Even with strangers...I freeze. I wouldn't have froze with him though...I think...had he told me...

...and it is because I have had to fight real hard for my life. I am not going to tell the whole story...but I am very lucky to even be alive....here...and my path in life has been more difficult than you can imagine. I worked really hard to overcome my circumstances...and I have been determined for as long as I can remember to undo the damage....so suicide is such a foreign concept to me...I have spent so long fighting for my chance,,,I can't even entertain the thought of suicide....it is the LAST thing I would ever think about. I always look for silver linings in every cloud..and I find them....I am good at it...

The reason...I don't like the bad guys (and girls) to win....I HATE IT. My parents did real bad things to me..and my brothers..things that they should have been in prison for. Things that most people never get past. For me..suicide would mean that the demons that were in my parents win...and I REFUSE to let them...

So..thank you guys for listening. I have some more comments on things a lot of you said..but I have no more time right now and have to be in Santa Cruz all day tomorrow so I will get back to this...

..and once again...THANK YOU for taking on such a difficult subject ....and sharing your thoughts and experiences....I hope I can return the favor sometime...

[Rareboy]

Some great advice. I have recommended grief counselling for several people over the years where an unexpected death of a loved one was just too much to process.

Those who followed through said that it was a lifesaver for them. I would do it on a one to one basis though.

[Gideon]

East...it sounds like we had somewhat similar situations growing up. My step mother was a really -bad- person who did really bad things to us. I thought I was protecting my brother by just keeping my mouth shut and the whole "at least it's just me" philosophy. When I found out the same had been going on with my brother all those years, that I hadn't been protecting him like I thought I was...it was a rough blow.

And we processed very differently. He is now a heroin addict and sits in jail for the umpteenth time even as I type this. Even missed our father's death and funeral... Yeah, we processed very, very differently.

Thing is though, you probably couldn't have saved him then, not really. Not from your parents, and likely not from himself and his own ghosts and issues. It's easy to accept blame, it's easy to blame yourself....but it wasn't -your- decision, man. Don't beat yourself up with what ifs...don't weigh yourself down with that kind of guilt. Even if you "should have" suspected, you didn't know...

Right now I'm trying to deal with the guilt of losing my dad. His wife was planning his funeral the moment he had the first code blue, planning to unplug and I fought her. I fought for him and giving him a chance and ultimately, being his wife really DID make it her decision(something she repeated over and over as we argued and I fought desperately to give him that chance to fight) I still think that maybe I should have done more, I feel guilty because I didn't fight harder...even if realistically I know I did everything I could.

That guilt isn't healthy for me...and this guilt isn't healthy for you. We can't save everyone, man, no matter how much we might want to. Let the guilt and the self anger go, man. It isn't doing you or your brother any good and it's not yours to own.

Your strength in what you've shared speaks for itself. Hold onto that and your good memories of your brother and try to let the rest go.

[subdivisions]

and for that I needed lots of help. I was very fortunate to get it, too. Since then depression is rare in my life and suicidal ideation even more rare.

I'm glad it helped you and others. I've been doing this stuff for years and it doesn't help me at all, with all the bullshit life throws at me constantly.

The real question is, why do people CHOOSE to remain miserable? From that POV, living a miserable life is a way of acting out one's rage at those who were supposed to know us, love us and accept us for who we are but didn't -- thus leaving us feeling invisible, unloved and betrayed; and suicide motivated from that is the ultimate "FUCK YOU!" statement. Its like saying, "Fuck you, I don't have to live in your miserable fucked up world!"

I don't choose to. God keeps throwing things at me that make me miserable. He could stop if he wanted to, but he won't. And my brain has always been pessimistic. I can't force myself to be an optimist.

[Cobalt]

I wouldn't be able to begin to tell anyone what to think about suicide really. All I know is, no one should judge someone for killing themselves. No one but the person who committed the act will truly understand why they did it. To them it made sense, no matter how "wrong" it was to do so.
That said, no one should judge how others affected by suicide feel either. Feelings are always personal and everyone is entitled to them, both the one who kills themselves and the family and friends left behind.

I'm sorry for your loss and hope you can one day find peace about what happened. Understanding may never come but sometimes having a peace about things is as good as it gets. I would like to be able to tell you what path you should take that will lead to that but that's different for everyone, only you know how that will go.

[MikeW]

We're off topic but I don't think [MENTION=18508]East[/MENTION] will mind too much if we don't get too carried away...

I'm glad it helped you and others. I've been doing this stuff for years and it doesn't help me at all, with all the bullshit life throws at me constantly.

I suspect I would have said pretty much the same thing at age 22. My life changed radically when I was able to live away from my parents and where I grew up... I discovered that a lot of who/what I thought I was, was "conditional" -- a product of circumstances.

I don't choose to. God keeps throwing things at me that make me miserable. He could stop if he wanted to, but he won't. And my brain has always been pessimistic. I can't force myself to be an optimist.

Well, I don't believe in "God" in the classic sense. But just for argument's sake, why would God do that? You seriously think God gives a fuck whether you thrive or wither? As if he doesn't have hundreds of billions if not giga-trillions of other entities scattered around the universe to be concerned about?

Ok, so life or whatever keeps throwing you curve balls. You either become a better batter or learn how to step off the plate. (It's possible to do either or both.)

As for your "brain"... the brain is an amazing, absolutely astoundingly amazing organ. However, it is no more "pessimistic" or "optimistic" than your left foot, or your penis. Besides, I'm not an "optimist" either. I've been through a ton of hell on this earth (and no little paradise, as well). So, I can say I know for a fact it has nothing to do with my "brain"... but it DOES have to do with my mind: Thoughts, feelings, attitudes, awareness, consciousness -- its kind of complex, really. Trust me, I do COMPLETELY understand that it doesn't FEEL like a choice. Lordy, I said almost exactly the same words you did for a long, long time. It was truly a revelation to discover that I *could* (sometimes, not always) CHOOSE how I saw myself and the world and how I dealt with the crap life throws our way.

All I'm trying to get across to you is that it is a real possibility. Not that you should BE THERE already. I don't think it really even began to get through to me until I was in my mid 30s. I hope you get there sooner!

[Anocxu]

WOW...I am so grateful for all of the insight and advice...you have no idea....

I have a lot of thoughts but not a lot of time so I want to say a few things....

The way I work..I will do as much as I can on my own until I need advice..and then I use it ..quickly if possible, That is how I approached therapy as well...I couldn't even fathom going for years...I wanted to heal myself and move on....and that is what my goal is now...

Right away.. [MENTION=20947]MikeW[/MENTION] unlocked a door for me which is ironic because he thought he might not contribute anything I needed...and the opposite is true...

and [MENTION=20738]TwisttheLeaf[/MENTION] brought me in touch with how I actually felt about my brother....

...and so I have spent the past day processing it all....

I realized that I am not angry at him ...I am angry at myself.....

I WAS angry at him initially...but I think when I started putting flowers on his grave I must have gotten past it....but I still felt angry...and so...I assumed I was still angry at him....

I hate to say this to myself...much less out loud...but I knew subconsciously what he was going to do...and I did nothing....and I know looking back that I WAS helpless..and what was going to happen was inevitable....

I would have had to tell him what my mother probably did to him....I was almost sure of it...and I knew he couldn't handle it. When I divorced my parents and had nothing more to do with them...it hit him the hardest..and I was trying really hard to be respectful of his relationship with my mom..they were close...and I felt it would accomplish nothing....

...and I also thought she had changed with him...which is why I didn't say anything...and then I saw something that sent chills up my spine..and I realized that he got the same thing the rest of us did...maybe even worse....and he didn't have what it took to deal with it.

..and I hate myself for what I did...and I also know that if I had to do it over...I would do the same thing again..for the same reasons....I mean not telling him about our mom and dad...I would have helped him not commit suicide had he told me....

I am OK with hating myself at the moment...maybe forever....not really hating myself...but hating my decision....and I think I deserve to feel that.I hated that I didn't figure it out consciously.... I always thought it was my job to protect my brothers from my parents...from everyone and everything...and I failed miserably. Most of the time...I didn't really have a chance...but I did have a chance when he came to me..and I didn't realize it at the moment..I didn't take it...

He didn't tell me he was thinking about suicide...but looking back..I knew somewhere inside of me that he had already made the decision....and it will haunt me I suppose until I can maybe apologize to him....and myself...

I didn't know consciously though...and had he told me..I know I would have jumped in and done whatever I could...I am certain of it actually....I would have wrestled his demons for him if he gave me the chance....I am pretty good at beating the fuckers....but he never gave me the chance...and I think that is why I was angry at him initially.

It is weird going back and replaying the final conversation...like he knew it was the final one...and for the first time today I cried thinking about it....I never did before....

...and the thing is...if a stranger comes up to me and I can tell they are in trouble...I will roll up my sleeves and rescue them without a second thought...

..but suicide...I freeze. Even with strangers...I freeze. I wouldn't have froze with him though...I think...had he told me...

...and it is because I have had to fight real hard for my life. I am not going to tell the whole story...but I am very lucky to even be alive....here...and my path in life has been more difficult than you can imagine. I worked really hard to overcome my circumstances...and I have been determined for as long as I can remember to undo the damage....so suicide is such a foreign concept to me...I have spent so long fighting for my chance,,,I can't even entertain the thought of suicide....it is the LAST thing I would ever think about. I always look for silver linings in every cloud..and I find them....I am good at it...

The reason...I don't like the bad guys (and girls) to win....I HATE IT. My parents did real bad things to me..and my brothers..things that they should have been in prison for. Things that most people never get past. For me..suicide would mean that the demons that were in my parents win...and I REFUSE to let them...

So..thank you guys for listening. I have some more comments on things a lot of you said..but I have no more time right now and have to be in Santa Cruz all day tomorrow so I will get back to this...

..and once again...THANK YOU for taking on such a difficult subject ....and sharing your thoughts and experiences....I hope I can return the favor sometime...

East my beloved...
I'm about to tread dangerous waters when I post this...

I'm at work reading this ...
I stepped outside...
Gave it a lot of thought and here goes...
Please don't be upset with me...

Suicide = Delete.

This is the definition of delete...

1) Remove or obliterate.

2) Cut out,*take out,*

3) Expunge, Eradicate, Cancel.

4) Rub out,*erase,*efface,*
wipe out,*blot out.

^^^^^
The decision was your brothers.
You will never be able to level or rationalize with his decision... It is not a likely or popular option...

All the things you could have done...That list...
Isn't it amazing how it grows and changes?
It takes on a life of its own.

How much can you do coming to terms with your brother's life and decisions if he's not here?.. His death left a nasty wound and you just won't let it heal...

When are you going to be able to ..

whisper to his spirit..
" I miss you" Followed by a smile ?

Look at old photos .. smiling... remembering some of the fun times?

See things that remind of him without being upset?

I think you're well on your way... if only you could STOP using yourself as an obstacle...

Work it out..