Child Behaviour ODD?? PLEASE READ!!

[Beaux]

I'm not sure what you're saying here. I just looked up Josh Duggar, but maybe wikipedia is wrong in this case? (I don't have the time right now to check sources and all that. I do know in certain situations like this that certain people will abuse the nature of wikipedia to change the story around or otherwise be misleading so it's possible that this is somehow skewed. Even so that comes off like something out of a bad TV drama.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josh_Dugga...ontroversy

I'm seeing that they said it was wrong and given the fundie nature of the family they probably tried to shame him more for his sexual nature than for his inappropriate behavior itself. And they took him to counselors and even enrolled him in some program over it.

He never saw a LICENSED counselor, he was sent off to the Goddard Institute (the producers of Christian Home-Schooler text books, where he worked on construction bids with out pay. That isn't "counseling". Also, the man who "counseled" him, was arrested and is now in prison for child molestation.

~Beaux

[kindy64]

I would worry more about where the 12 year old got the idea to ask his 5 year old brother. Perhaps the 12 yo was sexually abused at some point in the past?

He needs to be directed to experiment with kids his own age. I know my friends and I were all very curious at that age, and played around with each other.

I would also make it a rule the 5 yo can no longer sleep in the same room as the 12 yo. It is not worth the risk.

[Darius]

I would worry more about where the 12 year old got the idea to ask his 5 year old brother. Perhaps the 12 yo was sexually abused at some point in the past?

It could be that or it could be because he saw it in porn. The latest studies show children are now exposed to porn by the age of 7. If that is the case, by the time puberty hits with it's hormones (in this case probably 12) the child is curious about what it feels like.
It really has nothing to do with him being gay, necessarily.
Also, just because he is 12, doesn't mean he is not immature, even for a 12 year old.

I was to a lecture a few days ago and the prof was talking about dealing with children and sex. He made the point that talking to children about sex is NOT a one time thing. Parent's don't have "the talk" and leave it at that. They have a series of talks beginning long before puberty and let the child know it's okay to talk about these things without shame.

The boy needs to know he is not bad. He also needs to know about appropriate boundaries. I also don't think he needs a lifetime of counseling to learn there are proper ways to channel his urges.

[kindy64]

well, when my ex-wife and I were going through foster parent classes, there was a whole list of signs of potential sexual abuse we were supposed to be on the lookout for. The behavior described would be one of them. That's my only point of reference about that.

I've had discussions with our adopted son since we took him in our care at age 12. He's always a bit embarrassed, but he understands, and now brings up dating subjects and such at 15.

[LJay]

Five 'll get you ten that the 12 year old got the idea from his buddies at school.

[meridannight]

I would worry more about where the 12 year old got the idea to ask his 5 year old brother. Perhaps the 12 yo was sexually abused at some point in the past?

It could be that or it could be because he saw it in porn. The latest studies show children are now exposed to porn by the age of 7. If that is the case, by the time puberty hits with it's hormones (in this case probably 12) the child is curious about what it feels like.

Five 'll get you ten that the 12 year old got the idea from his buddies at school.

you don't need any of those to 'get the idea'. it's not something you do rationally. it's not a thing you contemplate in advance and then do it. it's more an impulse that you just don't control yet.

when i did it, i was also 12. it was 1995. there was no internet. i hadn't been exposed to porn. i hadn't talked to anybody about sex, not with my friends neither had my mom and her boyfriend had the talk with me yet.

i didn't 'get the idea' anywhere. i had no such knowledge in my head about it. it was nothing but new physical sensations kicking in, and me not knowing what to do with them just yet. so i acted on my impulses, which of course was wrong the way i did it, but it wasn't anything rational or something i thought of doing.

with the internet and media exposure these days, it might be a little different for kids growing up now. maybe that's the case. but i wanted to point out that he didn't need any previous exposure to sex in order to do something like this. jumping to speculations about sexual abuse is rather uncalled for.

[Butterfingers]

A few years back we rented a house, a mouse ran across the kitchen floor. My wife said, "we have a mouse", I relied, "no, we have mice".

This is probably not the first time the 12 year old has tried to have some kind of sexual activity with his little brother, it's the first time that it's been discovered.

A 7 year age difference is not experimentation, in all honesty it's molestation. You don't know if that is the only 5 yr. old he has tried this with.

The boy (the 12 yr. old) needs help, the sooner the better. To ignore this borders on neglect and abuse.

[Steve]

Steve,

Thanks for this its a very good response as are most of the replies.

As for the "embarrassed" thing....i only have not mentioned it as i have not been here long. I don't know where my boundaries stand with the child just yet but i will certainly have a go at chatting with him after school this evening.

I also have spoken to his mother about how sensitive this is where sexuality is concerned and where it can lead to sex being a "shamefull" or "taboo" subject

I dont want this to happen as i know only too well what this can do to a young person.

Really appreciate your post it will help us alot

Thanks to everyone else who chipped in and replied. you guys really are the best

I will update in due course if i need to

Thanks again

Again, my apologies if I lectured, or seemed condescending as I wrote; it was not my intention to be overbearing. I've had enough personal experience from parents who ask questions about gay behavior their child seemed to exhibit and my observation is that in nearly every case they aren't confident enough to begin a conversation. Worse, most of them don't know the difference between a conversation and a lecture (like my own initial post to you). Most of them "tell" the child instead of actually talking to him (or her).

It's excellent that you've spoken with your partner. As I said, it's important for both of you and for your relationship to be on the same page. She has should be willing to hear you out, and vice versa. Well done.

Confidence when you talk to him is key. By confidence I simply mean an unwavering openness about the subject. You must demonstrate that you are not bothered in the least about a frank conversation that includes very private, often intimate details. Give assurance that the discussion will stay between you, his mother, and himself. Then keep faith and follow through with privacy. Your friends don't need to know this discussion ever took place. If you do mention it to anyone all they'll want to do is wheedle its content into the open. The last thing the boy needs is to hear is that his confidence has been betrayed.

You'll also need a willingness not to judge, which will be difficult. If he has ill informed information, you need to steer him to the correct thinking in a manner which is gentle and not reproachful. A conversation is a two way benevolent exchange of ideas, questions and answers. My advice is that since the subject is adult in nature, treat him as an adult when you talk with him. He will appreciate this approach and will feel you consider his questions and answers bear the weight and respect of one adult talking to another. In my experience nothing's worse than treating a young man as a child when dealing with serious subject matter.

He's going to clam up initially, go red in the face, and feel as though he's done something wrong and that this is the last conversation he ever wanted to have with both of you. As unfortunate as the fact is, social mores has conditioned us to the nth degree that women have the "sex talk" with girls and men have the same with boys. Frankly I tend to think that's crap reasoning. Men may have certain insight because of their own experience, but often men base their childhood experience on events which took place more than two decades past. In my opinion any honest talk with your son (even if he is her son you must begin the process in your own mind that he is your son as well) can only yeild a greater understanding between all of you. Tackle the talk together. Make it easy for him. If he asks something you aen't sure of, tell him of your uncertainty, then use common sense and the experience you've gained as adults to answer him as best as possible.

Another benefit of you and your mother having the the "birds and the bees" talk with your son: you'll be able to correct early on misconceptions men often inherit from other men about women. Half the straight guys I talk to don't know the first thing about pleasing a women. Believe me, I've had more than my fair share of female friends who have complained their boyfriends treat a women's clitoris like a chew toy. Or that because the clitoris is the counterpart to a male's penis that they need to to treat it as they treat their own member. Often men forget to tell their sons that it's ok to ask questions during sex, even when they become more experienced. Nearly everyone experiences sex differently; it's more than good to stop and ask if a women wants a better approach in terms of technique.

Most men teach young guys that confidence is sexy to women, which I believe is true. What they don't include is that's it's often necessary to have a kind of verbal exchange during sex, especially so during the first time. Sex should be mostly about how one makes the other person feel, and that can't be done if one half (or more depending on how many take part) aren't communicating what they want and how it could be better. Instead shame is heaped upon the guy who is perceived as inexperienced when he grunts, moans, pants a question, asking if his (or her) partner needs something more, less, of completely different.

More straight guys I know think that they're great in bed because their own ego is too fragile to take the truth. Additionally my understanding is that many women simply don't want a bad encounter with a man who doesn't communicate in bed to last very long. Unless a woman really cares for a guy, doesn't she normally just want to just be rid of a fool who won't take direction from you in bed? I may be wrong (completely beyond my depth as my gay nature betrays me) here, but don't most women simply want the guy done and gone as fast as possible (and it usually isn't long at all), the exception being cruelty, demeaning behavior, or coercion? Again I may be completely over generalizing women, which isn't my intent. The women I have known mostly told me, "Why stop a two pump chump when you can get him out the door faster and with less hassle than to make waves." Unless he's hurting them, in which case my friend Darla used to say that she kneed the guy in the balls when he didn't stop and held a taser to him while she "...backed his ass out my door." (Darla and I were great friends; I always knew exactly where I stood with her.)

There was a line from the movie "Latter Days" (a m/m gay content movie) that Mark and I laugh at all the time. One of the characters explains, "Hell, I've blown a guy just to get him out of my apartment." We laugh because we've both done the exact same thing. If you're good at giving head, and over the years I've learned to be very good, it never takes long. And a common trait about men just wanting one-night-only sex is that once they're done, they're usually headed for the door whether you've gotten off or not. Men are pricks, aren't they?

Judy, liza, Barbra, Bette, I've gone on forever again haven't I? I hope I haven't offended you. Somehow I turned into Ruth Westheimer there for awhile. I do mean well, but mostly I just go off, off, off, on a tangent.

-Steve
xx
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He never saw a LICENSED counselor, he was sent off to the Goddard Institute (the producers of Christian Home-Schooler text books, where he worked on construction bids with out pay. That isn't "counseling". Also, the man who "counseled" him, was arrested and is now in prison for child molestation.

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Mark (my partner for those who don't know) has kept me up to speed on this subject. As a son of an evangelical preacher who has seen through all the b.s. many years ago, he gets hopping mad when the über religious don't walk the talk. Mark knows first hand how these religious sects operate. He's quick to point out an article in Salon.com (admittedly a left leaning publication, but it is horrifyingly accurate according to Mark).
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ATI taught us that it is our job to keep men’s desires from erupting into lust or sexual activity. We were taught that it was our sin if we “cause a man to lust after us.” I spent many nights as an early-developed teenager crying and begging God to take away my large breasts, because I noticed men’s eyes had begun to linger on me during church. Modesty wasn’t only about dress, it was also about behavior. Women were taught from a very young age that they are to be submissive in all things: allowing men to open doors for us (even to get out of a car), never initiating conversation with a man and never correcting a man when he was wrong. Essentially, a good ATI woman is sweet, silent, and obedient.
-Brooke Arnold
-writing for Salon.com

You're right completely correct about Josh Duggar's "rehabilitation" Beaux. It's good to hear that someone else has noticed the hypocrisy and lies that religious sect preaches and covers up. I really recommend reading the entire article I quoted from above (the link is contained in the credit at the bottom) because it's an eye opener. And that article doesn't really even address half the lies and cover up of Josh Duggar, his parents, the entire family, and the church leadership.

The Duggar's have knowingly created a monster through misguided church teaching, and a blatant disregard for the truth of what happened (and they knew it happened at the time) when he molested those girls.

If you want to learn some even more horrific things investigate another very powerful and well funded religion called Dominionism. Ted Cruz is quietly part of that dangerous craze.
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I would worry more about where the 12 year old got the idea to ask his 5 year old brother. Perhaps the 12 yo was sexually abused at some point in the past?

He needs to be directed to experiment with kids his own age. I know my friends and I were all very curious at that age, and played around with each other.

I would also make it a rule the 5 yo can no longer sleep in the same room as the 12 yo. It is not worth the risk.

Honey, kids teach other kids probably with more effectiveness than most teachers. Mark and I lived right next door to a Catholic elementary school. The words those kids used during recess would make a sailor blush. To me the idea that children are innocent in this day and age is complete crap. The majority of those elementary school kids knew the score, and they were the ones in Catholic school.

It is also very possible as Darius suggested that the OP's boy picked up the idea from porn. It's readily available these days. Truthfully I think many parents subconsciously turn away from kids access to porn thinking that it substitutes for actual teaching and discussion.

Sad.

[kindy64]

Again, my point of reference was foster parenting class, where we were learning how to deal with kids who were considered special needs if they were older than 6. All of them came from damaged families. The course was more saying it's something to consider, not that it was automatic.