Is the age of nice guys with values dead?

[azulai]

Seriously what has happened to the age of manners, traditional family values? I am not an angel by any standards but at his whole thing with hook ups, cheating, open relationships and the like is awfully tacky and scummy. So am I being totally silly? Am I being over the top? Or do I just have an old souklthat doesn't fit in with people of my age? But please tell me, is anyone else out there with the same values I have?

I think there is a fine line between stating you have “values” and being moralistic. Writing off people who don't subject themselves to your standards, as “scummy,” “awfully tacky” or as you stated in the other thread: “lacking principles” is more a reflection of your narrow mindedness and prejudice than their values.

What is it about sex that bothers you so much? What is it about physical contact that “repulses” you? Why is it wrong for two guys to hookup if they are both consenting adults and both know the score?

I think you are being immature rather than “silly.” I think you have a lot to learn about empathy and humility. You are on the outside looking in on other people's motivations and relationships. You find everyone lacking? That just amazes me. I don't think you have an old soul as you state, I think you have a very young soul. You are missing out on knowing some wonderful individuals because they don't “measure up” to your idea of "family values" which apparently includes sexual purity.

Ok then good, I just don't like the way I'm being looked at I asked a question do others have these values and it's come across like I'm bitter. I don't want a man, I just wanted to know if others have these values, it's like I'm being picked on . . . . . . . . . .

I think you are going to have a problem with my post. You have a victim mentality. You are attempting to make yourself feel “right.” Actually, that's what quite a few of the posts at GS are: people seeking validation in some form. I read the other thread, no one “picked on” you. You came across as a moralistic tool.

So, do I share your values? No, I value a kind heart, honesty, integrity, open-mindedness, self-awareness, humility, personal freedom, personal responsibility, and a sense of humor. I love it when people have a little jazz in their soul.

And just so you know, I've never hooked up and that's not something I would ever be interested in. I didn't share my first kiss until I was 20 and I'm very happily monogamous. I would never cheat because I would hurt him, put his life at risk and it would be dishonest.

I really hope you come to respect other people's personal decisions even if they aren't what you would choose for yourself.

[East]

So, do I share your values? No, I value a kind heart, honesty, integrity, open-mindedness, self-awareness, humility, personal freedom, personal responsibility, and a sense of humor. I love it when people have a little jazz in their soul.

So beautifully written...I share your values

[LateBloomer]

Mark, while I understand where you are coming from and what you are looking for, I've got to admit that I've learnt a lot about other people on these forums and how different values go for different people and especially how gay people might view intimacy and sex in a very different way from what we are largely taught by society to expect (in a straight relationship). It's difficult to shirk off those ideas and to come to grips with the reality of the scene. People can sometimes be shallow and only interested in a shag, even people who would normally not go for just a shag might end up (out of despair or just being fed up with going without sex) doing it, just to feel alive or to boost their ego and get an idea of their power to seduce.

Different things will happen at different ages and in different social situations. So, ok hooking up with someone in a sauna, or going out to a bar and being hit on by men interested only in a shag may be distateful to you, and you're entitled to have that opinion, but I think your view is greatly influenced by society's expectations and this sort of unattainable dream of meeting Prince Charming. It's probably a good thing not to be too unrealistic.

I'm not saying Prince Charming won't happen to you, nor that Mr Right won't some day appear in your life. I'm just saying that building a relationship is work, to some extent, and also letting another person with different points of view and considerations come into your life. Then it's also about some form of compromise. The question then raised is: how much of this person's differences am I ready to let into my life and my personal sphere? There is also that time of latency during which neither of you will quite know what's happening and whether it is a budding relationship or not... Those are unsteady times.

I'm sure there is someone out there who has similar views to yours and who is looking just for a person such as you are. We just need to accept that not all men are alike, which does make the choice of a partner potentially difficult.

I also believe that people who have finally come to terms with being gay have let down an important barrier, one which, in other circumstances would have reined them in to some extent. It may also explain some of the reckless and sometimes self-harming behaviour in which some part of the gay population engages. Many of us haven't had the opportunity to sow our wild oats as teenagers and are finding these thrills later on in life. It does make for a rather 'ungrounded' population, one less likely to want commitment and a serious relationship. Are men just dogs? Some are, some aren't.

This is a brilliant post, and the younger members of GS are fortunate to have someone with your experience and perspective sharing his thoughts.

But if I may?


If I could modify just one idea in your post it would be the very last one. And I would ask, "Are men just dogs?"

My answer: I have been an angel; I have been a dog; I'm trying to be a man.

As my profile states, I'm a walking-talking contradiction.

I have been all those! Virgin for DECADES! A dog for a few years...

Now, feeling as if I've fully explored the spectrum of my sexuality, I'm focused on settling down.

THE POINT IS: In order to find a compatible partner we need to find someone who is on a similar trajectory; someone who can sail in the same direction for the long term.

THE PROBLEM with relationships is when people on different trajectories come together briefly but there isn't sufficient "gravity" or "magnetism" or whatever that mysterious force is that causes people to continue in the same direction for years (obviously with continual adjustments until death do they part, or it's decided to part ways).

[Bowyn Aerrow]

As Cher so aptly put it:

"...physically repulsive, intellectually retarded, you're morally reprehensible, vulgar, insensitive, selfish, stupid, you have no taste, a lousy sense of humor, and you smell."

Granted she was only talking about one demon, but most (not all) men are exactly that way.

The Gay scene has never (to my personal knowledge) promoted family values.

While a few may be family oriented, the major of us seek to reassess and change the whole concept of Family. This should be found in Chapter 5 (Redefining Family Values) of your copy of the Gay Agenda.

Also part of that Agenda is to promote promiscuity and to neuter the ideology of monogamy (Chapters 2 and 6) .

In all honesty most men are indeed pigs. The only difference between straight men and gay men is that straight men at least pretend to care about monogamy, love and other stuff because it appears to please women - and pleasing women is what straight men really, really, want to do.

Gay men, unfettered from the desire to please women, act with other men much as they want and the way other men want, which means 'openness' about sex - you know sinful things like promiscuity, open relationships, toe tapping in airport bathrooms.

Back about when I was your age I had the same problem. Thus this is not a new problem. Back then we still had bath houses and wild orgy parties... and better drugs. Sex was most likely better too, so few people bothered to wear a condom in those days.

Need I remind, that in my whole 45 years of life I have only had 8 sex partners?

Compared to the people who you (we) are talking about, this makes me practically a virgin. Understand I am a rarity in the world.

Understand that 6 of those were honest attempts at relationships. 5 of which failed spectacularly. OK, only two failed spectacularly, the others just failed.

The rest of the time I spent fighting the same exact fight you are fighting. Many lonely nights I went home alone. Many men I had to all but literally beat off of me, many a drinks I was given in hopes that if they could get me drunk enough they could get my pants off.

Actually love. Good luck with that. 6 Relationships, how many do you think were 'actual' love? Me thinks 2 - possibly three. The first who was patient enough to wait a little over 6 months before I went up to his room. The last who I have been with for over 14 years (and regardless how mean I can be, is still here). Possibly peter, but he was always busy chasing the bag and our 'relationship' was mostly him coming over to my house to crash and burn after a week or so of hard tweaking... that and to show me how to IV use and turn me on to a whole slew of interesting substances. God that guy loved me.....

The others were, most likely, playing a game to get a piece of this. Men are willing to do a lot of things to make a conquest, up to and including playing at a relationship in order to trick you into their bed.

Where are the old fashioned values and manners? I don't know, they didn't exist in the 80's when I entered the scene. They definitely were not there in the rave halls and bars and clubs as I was using and drinking. They were in the bathhouses, YMCA and various other party places I was invited to (to discover I was really invited to an orgy!).

I think you are placing to high of hopes on the majority of humans - Yeah the whole of humanity, not just gays.

Humans play a good game of talking a good talk, Take the Victorians, according to them sex didn't happen, however history reveals that S&M and many other interesting things took place that was carefully not noted down in social pages of the Era. The more sexually repressed a society is, the more wild and nasty it can be.

There are a few of us out here. Pity I'm too old for you... So you will have to find the other two. Good luck. :tongue:

[LateBloomer]

Love your candor Bowyn.
Thanks to you as well for sharing your experiences.

[HollandofFrance]

these gay couples i see on tv advocating gay marriage dont seem like the adulterer type

[HollandofFrance]

Elton john and Ricky martin dont seem like the cheating type

[Evilbunnie]

[COLOR="red"]The world, much like the average person, is always changing and growing and going through cycles. Right now the world is all about what's face-paced, flashy, and convenient. Instant gratification, swag, and media frenzy is in, morals and values are out. Even the love songs are different now, all about how "you can't stand the b*tch you're with so you f*ck some other b*tch and drink all the time and drunk text and everyone is miserable so lets all do some coke and have a party in overpriced designer clothes", and the people eat it up. That's kinda how things are now. So, yes, there are guys out there who share your morals and values and blah blah, but they're hard to find. What you'll find out as you grow older is that from generation to generation nothing has changed as far as finding someone who is on the same wavelength as you. When you look for people of a certain quality, the quantity of people shrinks.

As you get older you'll also find that morals and values don't hold nearly as much weight, and that by holding on to them so tightly, you deny yourself of experiences that you might have enjoyed and been better off for having.

ANYONE can cheat, everyone is human. Not every relationship should come to an end because of one stupid mistake... the strongest relationship is likely the one in which the bond is so strong that one lover is able to forgive the other and move forward and thrive as a couple, it might even serve to strengthen the bond. Open relationships are not BS, they actually work really well for a lot of people. It's all a matter of personal preference. I could go on about specific things you mentioned all day but I don't really feel like it. It seems to me that in some ways, your views on relationships, morality, values, and sexuality are somewhat black and white. I used to see things that way... imagine my surprise when lots of things turned out to be gray. I'm not saying you're gonna grow into some free loving nympho... (I sure didn't) but you may feel different about a lot of things later on. [/COLOR]

[mrk2010]

As Cher so aptly put it:

"...physically repulsive, intellectually retarded, you're morally reprehensible, vulgar, insensitive, selfish, stupid, you have no taste, a lousy sense of humor, and you smell."

Granted she was only talking about one demon, but most (not all) men are exactly that way.

The Gay scene has never (to my personal knowledge) promoted family values.

While a few may be family oriented, the major of us seek to reassess and change the whole concept of Family. This should be found in Chapter 5 (Redefining Family Values) of your copy of the Gay Agenda.

Also part of that Agenda is to promote promiscuity and to neuter the ideology of monogamy (Chapters 2 and 6) .

In all honesty most men are indeed pigs. The only difference between straight men and gay men is that straight men at least pretend to care about monogamy, love and other stuff because it appears to please women - and pleasing women is what straight men really, really, want to do.

Gay men, unfettered from the desire to please women, act with other men much as they want and the way other men want, which means 'openness' about sex - you know sinful things like promiscuity, open relationships, toe tapping in airport bathrooms.

Back about when I was your age I had the same problem. Thus this is not a new problem. Back then we still had bath houses and wild orgy parties... and better drugs. Sex was most likely better too, so few people bothered to wear a condom in those days.

Need I remind, that in my whole 45 years of life I have only had 8 sex partners?

Compared to the people who you (we) are talking about, this makes me practically a virgin. Understand I am a rarity in the world.

Understand that 6 of those were honest attempts at relationships. 5 of which failed spectacularly. OK, only two failed spectacularly, the others just failed.

The rest of the time I spent fighting the same exact fight you are fighting. Many lonely nights I went home alone. Many men I had to all but literally beat off of me, many a drinks I was given in hopes that if they could get me drunk enough they could get my pants off.

Actually love. Good luck with that. 6 Relationships, how many do you think were 'actual' love? Me thinks 2 - possibly three. The first who was patient enough to wait a little over 6 months before I went up to his room. The last who I have been with for over 14 years (and regardless how mean I can be, is still here). Possibly peter, but he was always busy chasing the bag and our 'relationship' was mostly him coming over to my house to crash and burn after a week or so of hard tweaking... that and to show me how to IV use and turn me on to a whole slew of interesting substances. God that guy loved me.....

The others were, most likely, playing a game to get a piece of this. Men are willing to do a lot of things to make a conquest, up to and including playing at a relationship in order to trick you into their bed.

Where are the old fashioned values and manners? I don't know, they didn't exist in the 80's when I entered the scene. They definitely were not there in the rave halls and bars and clubs as I was using and drinking. They were in the bathhouses, YMCA and various other party places I was invited to (to discover I was really invited to an orgy!).

I think you are placing to high of hopes on the majority of humans - Yeah the whole of humanity, not just gays.

Humans play a good game of talking a good talk, Take the Victorians, according to them sex didn't happen, however history reveals that S&M and many other interesting things took place that was carefully not noted down in social pages of the Era. The more sexually repressed a society is, the more wild and nasty it can be.

There are a few of us out here. Pity I'm too old for you... So you will have to find the other two. Good luck. :tongue:

Thank you this is exactly what I needed :-) I dot know why but lately I've just got onto this man hating thing and I kind of expect unrealistic perfectionist men. Tbh I wrote this post out of a bit of frustration and it's kind of built up into something silly. But you have grasped what I meant and I thank you for it :-)

[mrk2010]

To be honest I think it's time I take a break about thinking about relationships etc, I don't know why I am a bit fed up, have a bit of a stressful life at the moment so I suppose I have to lash out somewhere and it just happened to be on gayspeak. Mmm usually my arguments are well balanced, mmmm this is out of character for me, I might have to think about this and wonder what is going on.