The existence of HELL

[Wade]

I find discussions on the factual particularities of mythologies kind of funny. Discussing what to do when a crises arises, or whose haircut is the most badass I can understand, because at least with those topics you have something substantial and real from which to draw a conclusion. But... does hell exist and what is it like and who goes there? There's no discussion to be had because anything anyone has to say about the matter is just shit they're making up!

OFF TOPIC TANGENT: I don't even know if I care anymore whether people hold strange beliefs. I used to feel that if religion were eradicated there would be peace, but I'm not so sure anymore. The wide spectrum of belief and behavior that stems from Christianity alone proves to me that people's actions and beliefs are not decided by their religion, rather, they're religion is shaped by their actions and beliefs. Don't like gays? Great! The bible has a few things to say about em', and just ignore all that "love your neighbor" bullshit. Like eating shrimp cocktails? No worries! Just say that all that shrimp shit is Old Testament stuff and Jesus made all that shit null and void (don't forget to change the subject when your own inconsistencies are mentioned).

People are gonna do and believe whatever the hell they want and squeeze their chosen or forced religion to fit it all. So... hell's not real. Don't be silly.

[Wade]

You have to see things from God's perspective.

To God, there is no such thing as big or small sin, there is just sin. And every sin can and will affect the entire universe in a negative way (butterfly effect).

This means that even the most vicious murderer can have a chance of redemption. But it also means that some sins that are commonly seen as venial or insignificant actually aren't and can stop you from going to Heaven.

How do you feel so secure that you've figured out your god? Are you sure you're not just talking about yourself?

Many Christians like to talk about how foolish it is for anyone to question God's plan or assume they're privy to how he/she thinks. Look what he did to Job! Fucked his whole shit up just to prove how to Satan how super popular he is.

[MikeW]

...I don't even know if I care anymore whether people hold strange beliefs. ....

Is Mehville a real place or did you just make that up? Cute! LOL

You're absolutely right. It is an interesting question, why do people believe what they believe? Why, indeed, do they *believe* anything? Of course we all believe all kinds of things--speaking beyond the religious sense of the word. I believe the sun will rise tomorrow and I'm probably justified in that belief. I also believe a lot of other things that may have no basis in reality what so ever. You have to admit to some extent at least what we call "social reality" is a construct, something we've created, as it were, out of the 'thin air' of (for better and worse) the imagination.

But it also isn't so simple. Just like events have causes, decisions have consequences. The fundamental question is, what 'belief' do we base our decision on? I'm here in this moment typing these words on my laptop; that is my reality. Meanwhile, all around, the lives of billions of people are engaged in everything we do. We, collectively, are shaping the very reality we live in moment by moment.

The fundamental religious question (as I understand it) is, where do these impulses to 'create our own reality' come from? One contemporary has said the answer for us is "thought". Everything we do is derived from thought and thought, always being derived from the past, prevents us from knowing directly, in the moment, what is.

[Wade]

Very interesting, Mike. I agree that we should be suspicious of any definite picture of reality. Our senses limit our capacity for experiencing objective reality, if such a thing even exists. However, if all we have is our senses and our memories, fickle as they both may be, it is by relying on those tools that we should determine our course and our morality, I feel. Empirical evidence tells us that the likelihood of the sun rising tomorrow is quite high, therefore we should behave as though it is. Out of all the possible ways to prepare for the morning, that's the most rational. I assume the sun will rise because it has never not risen, to the best of my knowledge, but I don't "believe" it will rise (there's a "because" in that sentence. When it comes to believing in mythology or superstition, I don't understand where the "because" fits in). But I again agree with you that any belief whatsoever is inherently ridiculous.

Jiddu Krishnamurti seems like an interesting thinker. I'll definitely read more about him, thanks. And yes, Mehville is a real place... in my heart. .... it's also in Northern California and is filled with meth addicts.

I should also add that I'm inferring quite a bit from your post, which is a bad habit of mine. So if I put words in your mouth, I apologize and please correct me.

[meninlove]

Oh, and since no one is replying right away, I'll add my little motto, garnered from having rubbed elbows a few times with the black-wraparound-sunglases crowd: "Whoever controls your perception of reality, controls you." Fleshing that out a bit… Whatever you believe to be true will be the basis upon which you make your life decisions, whether it *is* true or not.

This is one of my favourite clips, and explains much of me. *grins* I had a remarkable experience a couple of years back, where a young fellow of 21 asked me about such things, and this is pretty well much what I said. lol, I guess in many ways Bill and I are these second hand lions. Good movie, btw.

[MikeW]

Very interesting, Mike. I agree that we should be suspicious of any definite picture of reality...And yes, Mehville is a real place... in my heart. .... it's also in Northern California and is filled with meth addicts.

:eek: We're near neighbors!

Krishnamurti is one of a very few people who has had a profound impact on my life. He speaks of transformation and makes clear that, as he put it, "Truth is a pathless land." For Krishamurti, and I concur with this, "attention" is the key. Don't know if you read it, but this aligns with the long quote from Jacob Needleman I posted up-thread, re the perpetual search for a better *quality* of consciousness. It isn't an intellectual pursuit (exactly). Krishnamurti makes the point repeatedly that we can think about it all we want but that won't make any difference. Thought can't 'take you there' (as it were). Something more fundamental--such as 'what' we pay attention to and 'how' we pay attention to it--has to shift. It's like choosing to be aware of all that is myself in the moment, regardless of what I'm thinking or saying or doing. Even if I can find that 'state' for a moment, very quickly 'thought' comes rushing back. This, again, is what Needleman was saying; The veil between us and reality is something constantly reforming with each new impression.

This is seriously interesting stuff, to me.

[MikeW]

Oh, Wade, while I'm thinking of it, you know the sun don't rise, right? Never has, never will.

[Wade]

Oh, Wade, while I'm thinking of it, you know the sun don't rise, right? Never has, never will.

Psssh... then what's the point of the invisible chariot in the sky if not to pull the sun up in the morning? Next you'll be telling me that stars aren't made of wishes or the moon isn't really a giant magic headless man playing the world's slowest game of peek-a-boo.

Krishnamurti and Needleman's philosophy sounds a lot like Zen Buddhism, from what little I know of the latter.

[MikeW]

This is one of my favourite clips, and explains much of me. *grins* I had a remarkable experience a couple of years back, where a young fellow of 21 asked me about such things, and this is pretty well much what I said. lol, I guess in many ways Bill and I are these second hand lions. Good movie, btw.

[ YOUTUBE] duu0bCkSlUo[/YOUTUBE]

Oh, I remember that movie. I agree there are some things worth believing in.

It's a bit of a semantic issue "belief" vs "faith". Obviously they are related but, in my lexicon, faith is (as Needleman puts it) "a miraculous quality of certainty." It's what I *know* to be true, even absent evidence that might convince anyone else. To an extent it is what I choose to believe in, ground my life in, because I see the benefits of doing that. It is something I take responsibility for.

But the most important point is that faith can not arise solely from external influences. I may be told that love is eternal, I may even choose to believe it, but if I can not find the truth of that statement within myself, then it remains only a belief, not a certainty.

[MikeW]

...Krishnamurti and Needleman's philosophy sounds a lot like Zen Buddhism, from what little I know of the latter.

Yes, there are similarities (and differences). As I understand it, what distinguishes them is that these are methodologies more so than mere philosophies. They may have philosophical components (realms of thought) but it isn't a matter of only 'thinking' differently but actually 'being' differently.