The existence of HELL

[meninlove]

You have to see things from God's perspective.

To God, there is no such thing as big or small sin, there is just sin. And every sin can and will affect the entire universe in a negative way (butterfly effect).

This means that even the most vicious murderer can have a chance of redemption. But it also means that some sins that are commonly seen as venial or insignificant actually aren't and can stop you from going to Heaven.

Hmmm, being Christian, I can't believe my love and compassion, mercy and charity are greater than god's, if I go by what you said here.

Here's the thing, if you saw a stranger walk up to your sister and order her to love him or else eternal suffering, and listened to him tell her that on top of loving him or else, she must follow piles of rules regarding her conduct or else, what would you tell your sister to do? I often tell people to be careful what they believe god to be, because god might just oblige you.

[meninlove]

For me this is very easy, MisterLove *warm smile* I'll show you.
To understand what love is, I remind myself with Cor 1-13. God loves no less, and a whole lot more.

Like so:
' If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind.
It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails.
But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.'

In the bold is the bible's description of what love is. God loves us all. Put the two together and...

[MikeW]

Ok, you guys have it all wrong. We live in a universe of four dimensions (that we directly experience): the three dimensions of space and the forth dimension of time. "God" (a short hand word for the ineffable) is said to be 'eternal' and 'all knowing' which places him (not a gender), and posits the existence of, a universe of higher dimension: the fifth and sixth (which we may imagine but seldom have any direct experience of). The fifth dimension is what we call 'eternity'; the sixth we don't really have a word for but we might consider it 'the realm of all possibilities'.

Because our experiences and thoughts take place in time and because they seem to be strung together linearly, we generally think of 'eternity' as a 'very, very long--perhaps even infinite'--timeline. But another way to think about it is a line that has a beginning point and end point but which has parallels like this ||||||| forming a 'plane' of time.

However, anything approaching an 'objective' observation of 'lines' in the universe shows us that they are *not straight lines*. All lines in nature are spirals or segments of spirals.



More accurately, since these spirals are moving through time, they have 'spacial' (not planar) dimensionality, like this:



And are connected together, like this:



And (imagine this as not 'planar' but spacial) this:



So, for example, as our sun spirals through our galaxy (which is itself a spiral), it pulls its planets and moons along with it through a *spiral* timeline like this:



And, since all galaxies themselves are not only turning on their axis but also moving through space, perhaps you can begin to *imagine* the complexity of the fifth dimension where this orderly tangle of spirals can be 'seen all at once'. This is how 'God' sees the universe in total and (since he is non-local) in fine detail.

Now, as if all this weren't complicated enough, the sixth dimension, being the dimension of 'all possibilities' suggests that this 'orderly tangle of spirals encompassing all time' represents only *one* set of possible universes unfolding within itself; where, from God's POV, there is an 'infinite number' of such possible sets!

So, at the very least, here, lets put all 'notions' of what God may or may not be in the context of this unfathomably elaborate realization that even the physical universe is far, far more complex than you or I can ever even imagine, let alone know.

To be continued….

[MikeW]

Continued…

So far I've put the experiential universe, what we call 'the physical universe' in a much larger context. However, there is much more to it and *this* is where it begins to get truly interesting. For as complex as the experiential, physical universe *is*; it pales in comparison to the the universes (plural) of what I'm going to call 'mind' (or 'consciousness'). That is, the realms of our 'inner' experiences which, for us, include: sensations, perceptions, thoughts, imaginings, meanings, emotions, dreams, insights--and much, much more.

To even begin to understand what I'm getting at here you have to understand that *your entire awareness of yourself and the universe of which you experience yourself being a part* takes place *inside* what I'm calling "mind". For example, we say we see light. But that isn't exactly accurate at all. 'What' we 'see' is a neuro-phenomenological consequence of light energy impacting our optic nerves. Think about that: No 'light' gets through our retina! The very subtle variations in the quanta of light energy are transferred from our cones and rods as electromagnetic impulses to the brain *where* that stimulation *is experienced as light* AND, through a very, very complex system of activities, *perceived* as a "meaningful" event.



In the example above, the man 'sees' light, shadow, color; 'perceives' "coffee cup" and experiences, "oh yummy!" or "Oh, gross!" or *whatever*.

The point I'm making here is that whatever we are experiencing in any given moment of our lives is an extremely complex process that includes stimulation from all the spiraling energies around us into our brain which *THEN* becomes a 'meaningful' or 'significant' PERCEPTION of 'ourselves' in a 'real world'.

NOW (sorry, it takes a long time to set this up), our civilization is still very much trying to understand scientifically all the various complex processes that go on in the brain that sort through ALL (and there is a ton of it) the stimulation our bodies are experiencing moment by moment WHICH is then 'translated' into our experiences of *ourselves* in *a 'real' world*. I call this our "self/world reality bubble." Understanding that the "/" mark is not a separation but a unifying connection. Whether we're talking about 'the world' or 'ourselves'--BOTH are products of this unfathomably complex system of interactions in the brain which produce (in a broad sense of the word) MEANING.

But what I want us all to focus on is not the science, not the complex interactions of 'the brain' (talk about a complex almost infinite system of spirals!!), but this other, much more philosophical and unquantifiable realm of MEANING itself! Because it is HERE "in the realm of MEANING" that any concept of "heaven" or "hell" takes shape.

To be continued...

[supasyd]

Hell does have a purpose: justice. It is a place of punishment for sinners and keeps them away from Heaven. (if sinners were allowed in Heaven, I guess it would quickly become hell).

It's not God that sends people to hell, it's humans that freely choose to go there.

But people only do bad things because of their surroundings and experiences anyway, so a lot of the 'sinners' probably wouldn't feel compelled to cause a riot in heaven. Justice is rarely just, and more often means 'revenge', which isn't a very holy concept to me.

Also, if this is true then surely this also makes God elitist, as well as a sadist??

[MikeW]

Continued…

Because our identities and perceptions of ourselves 'in' a world of sensations and events are so closely intertwined, it is almost impossible for us to separate all this out into any component aspects or 'parts'. We believe 'we' are 'real' and that the 'universe' is 'real'. And very quickly I hasten to add that I'm not suggesting that either 'we' or 'the universe' are NOT real. On the contrary, what I'm trying to move us toward is the realization that the 'we' and 'the universe we perceive'--the realm of the significant and meaningful-- IS another level of reality altogether that is above and yet interdependent with what we call 'physical' reality.

One example I like to give is the idea of "boundaries". I can say "I live in the United States" and this is fact. But "the United States" is a system of meaningful ideas, not something that exists *independent of* the minds that hold that set of meaningful ideas. Try to let that sink in. The boundary between the US and Canada, for example, has no basis in the physical universe *except* as people 'perceive' it and make markers on the land (and lines drawn on maps) to separate one 'area' of land from another. It has no "objective" existence independent of thought. EVERYTHING that exists in social reality… whether it is rules of law, ideas, music, art, the buildings we live in, the cars we drive, the computers we use to communicate ideas with one another, the languages all this are bound up with… is a product of 'the realm of the mind'.

Perhaps you can now get a sense of where I'm gong. Whether we're talking about the United States and Canada or "heaven" and "hell", so far as these are concepts in the mind, their existence is first and foremost within that realm--and only secondarily, as we manifest them in our lives, in the physical realm.

This is no small thing, no diminutive thing, no 'lesser' thing than some 'objective' physical reality. ON THE CONTRARY, it is highly significant and points us toward an understanding that MEANING, the realm of experiences within the mind, is, for us, every bit as much an existential reality as the physical reality of the infinitely spiraling multi-dimensional universe.

This is why discussions like this are so very, very important. Whatever the words "heaven" or "hell" mean to us (and they might mean nothing much at all) has an existence for us that may be as concrete and real as my sense of self, my sense of 'being in the world', and my sense of 'the world' itself.

Try and understand this. Whatever has meaning for us is real for us; it has an existence that we experience as real. Sartre is right to say that "nothingness" comes into the world through our conceptual ability to separate 'subject' from 'object'; but this does not negate the equal (and I would argue superior) fact that (beyond mere existence) BEING is a direct result of our perceptions and higher operations within what I am calling 'mind' or 'consciousness' (not to be limited to ONLY brain activity).

Are you with me? Are we getting somewhere here?

Where is "heaven" where is "hell"? The apocryphal Gospel of Thomas (Saying 3) puts it best (IMO): Jesus said, "If those who lead you (plur.) say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in heaven,' then the birds of heaven will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. But the kingdom is inside of you. And it is outside of you. "When you become acquainted with yourselves, then you will be recognized. And you will understand that it is you who are children of the living father. But if you do not become acquainted with yourselves, then you are in poverty, and it is you who are the poverty."

The Bible and other religious books are just words, just little letters (like the ones you are *reading* now -- ever question how you *do* that?) printed or written on paper or parchment or stone by some living mind at some point in history, markers indicating LIVING IDEAS THAT HAD MEANING for the person writing, trying so desperately to share them with others of his kind. Some of these ideas have been a part of human history for as long as there has been a history. They (along with so much else, including great confusion and resulting conflict, pain and suffering) are our human legacy. Thus we have to ask ourselves, "How do I understand the words of 'Thomas'? Do they have *meaning* for me? What possible meaning can they have?"

There are other great teachings that have come down to us as well. Perhaps one of the most interesting is The Bardo Thodol (aka, The Tibetan Book of the Dead). Ostensibly the book is to be read *to the dead* more or less immediately after their passing. It is a set of reminders that *whatever one is experiencing* (whether it be a realm of 'heaven' or 'hell') ALL is "illusion". Understand that "illusion" here does not mean 'not real'; it most certainly *is* real to the one who is experiencing it. Rather "illusion" in this context means *not the ultimate truth*. For Tibetan Buddhists, the Bardo realm is an after-death experiencing of all the desires, hopes and fears that we, as self-identified human beings, experienced on earth, but in a much more symbolic form. In it 'we' are reminded repeatedly that whatever is before us, 'thou art not that'; that whatever one experiences is NOT the true 'self'. To become identified with *any* perception (desirable, pleasurable, fearful, painful) *becomes one's 'reality'*.

(Side note: See if you can make in your minds the connection between this kind of thinking and, for example, the Hebrew mythology of Adam and Even and the Serpent in the garden of Eden. It's really the same kind of deal, just harder for us to understand it that way.)

So, where are we?

To be continued…

[Camfer]

I am struck with bemusement when a person claims to know the enormity of the Divine and then rather than speaking of That, lays out a set of pat little rules for others to follow. My interest is piqued when people speak of their own direct experience of the Divine, unmediated through the words and ideas so easily bandied about as if it is universally true.

http://www.gangaji.org/Community/News/?id=41

[Jake]

Love never fails.
But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

Now, thanks Meninlove for providing the biblical vision of love, now let's see the very scientific version of love, it may not be has beautiful and poetic as the bible or any poets may suggest it, but it is what it is and comes from that gelatinous matter that rest in your head.

You and the bible call it love, I call it the nature's way to keep us alive and reproducing. So when does love occurs? Well, if I go through my psychology books and I have studied behavioral psychology not the clinical one that says that everyone is crazy and should all be in a mental institution - gay people head first LOL.

When you fancy someone it's basically half percent of your body language that will take the largest part of the love chemical potion. So for those with inclination on numbers this is about 55%

Next is the stone and speed of once voice, what make you love a love song so much? Have you ever really stopped asking you that question. And it doesn't matter if you like soft or strong voice it really does reach you in some ways. Now this is about 38% +

The remaining percentage is through what they say. When I'm being romantic with Alex (that doesn't happen too often) but it happens, I have noticed that what I say doesn't matter as much as how I say it. If I were to ask Alex what I said when I was courting him, I'm quite certain he would not recall half of it because his attention was much more into looking into my eyes, my lips and all the other messages I'm sending through my body, more than words... and I have to admit it's pretty much the same from him to me. I'm not saying here that what he says doesn't reach to me, it does, but I read him more when he stands in a certain way, when his eyes glows and flap uncontrollably and that's how I've realized that it is true... Love isn't just words, it's a lot of things and a lot of reactions happens in my body and in my head when we are in that trance.

Now let's tackle the chemical part of love, there's three major chemical produce by your brain when you fall in love or are in love with somebody. You've heard of them before, but there's more and we'll go through those later. The main chemicals produced by your brain are:

Adrenaline; this is the initial stages of falling for someone, which activates your stress response, increasing your blood levels of adrenalin and cortisol. This has the charming effect that when you unexpectedly bump into your new love, you start to sweat, your heart races and your mouth goes dry.

Dopamine; this chemical stimulates ‘desire and reward’ by triggering an intense rush of pleasure. It has the same effect on the brain as taking cocaine - now I did cocaine when I was younger and god do you get high quick and you feel invincible (god thank you for me it was just one time)!

Serotonin; one of love's most important chemicals that may explain why when you’re falling in love, your new lover keeps popping into your thoughts. Serotonin is a neurotransmitter found in the digestive tract, the central nervous system, blood platelets and the pineal gland (deep at the center of the brain). It is also known as 5-hydroxytryptamine, which is often abbreviated to 5-HT. Now rich of that information, regarding serotonin, do you now understand why your stomach get upset when you fall in love with someone? Or that you are in love... those "butterflies" that people talks so much when they described what happen when they are in love with someone as a name and it's called "serotonin" - and we're not talking about the bat (however it's related). Here's few things where serotonin is involved with your body and you'll understand why this chemical is very important in the feeling of love, because your body will have different reaction to all those and it is the same for every human beings. Don't even try to get away from it. Here's where serotonin is active:

• appetite
  
• sleep
  
• memor
  
• learning
  
• temperature
  
• mood - serotonin is also known as a happiness hormone because it contributes to feelings of well-being
  
• behavior - get a bit silly
  
• muscle contraction
  
• depression - rejection or incertitude
  
• cardiovascular function - your heart beat increases
  
• endocrine regulation
  
• regulating aging
  
• bone metabolism
  
• wound healing - serotonin is a growth factor for some types of cells
  

While serotonin is called the happiness hormone it is also considered the main factor for depression as well. Therefore, when a doctor prescribes drugs such as "prozac" and "zoloft" which are both main antidepressant drugs, their role is to raise your brain level of serotonin so you can feel happy again. But when you fall in love or are in love with someone, your brain naturally produces it. Which places you in an euphoria of happiness until you divorce hahahaha!

Does love change the way you think? Yes it does! People with OCD Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, would immediately understand how love does change because when you're in love with someone, there's none a day not a minute that the loved one comes to your mind. It is very related to OCD syndrome. It's very true, there's not a day in my life since I'm with Alex I don't have a thought about him. And when I know he's alone driving on the highway back home, I get even more obsessive until he passes the door. And the very same happens to my children and those I care about.

Gotta be blind to be in love. Well, that's also true, because when you are in love or falls in love with someone, physical imperfection and some treat of personality doesn't seem to get to you. That's when the serotonin has ceased to affect you that you start noticing that he has this clenching eye or that his left toes are bigger than the right one... In fact, you do notice them... But you just find it cute.

Now I haven't talked yet about the sex hormones: which are respectively testosterone and oestrogen – in both men and women. Yes, we both have it... men also have a small portion of oestrogen and women do also have a small amount of testosterone... The difference here is the quantity one produces. But both have the very same functions. SEX.

When you thing that I was done with the love chemical broth that creates love, you're mistaken. There's two other major hormones that comes to play in the love retention of a love one, they are called "Oxytocinand Vasopressin."

Oxytocin is the kissing hormone and/or the cuddling hormones. When we hug or kiss a loved one, Oxytocin levels drive up. It also acts as a neurotransmitter in the brain. In fact, the hormone plays a huge role in pair bonding. This hormone is also greatly stimulated during sex, birth, breast feeding—the list goes on.

Vasopressin is a peptide hormone formed in the hypothalamus, then transported via axons to, and released from, the posterior pituitary into the blood. It is another important hormone in the long-term commitment stage and is released after sex. Vasopressin (also called anti-diuretic hormone) works with your kidneys to control thirst. As a diabetic... my vasopressin does not control much because I'm always thirsty lol. So much that sometimes I do have to stop during sex to have a glass of water.

And you guess that there's many other... but those we spoke about are hormones that produce by a tiny pearl size organ present in your brain and it is one of the most important as it control several things: But let's see the most important here.

The hypothalamus is involved in several functions of the body including:

• Autonomic Function Control - everything that automate in your body. Did your eyelids just flapped? Did you control it? No, hypothalamus did.
  
• Endocrine Function Control - the endocrine system refers to the collection of glands of an organism that secrete hormones directly into the circulatory system to be carried toward a distant target organ
  
• Homeostasis - is the ability to maintain a constant internal environment in response to environmental changes. It is a unifying principle of biology.
  
• Motor Function Control - walk, talk, move
  
• Food and Water Intake Regulation - without it your oesophagus wouldn't know when to contract muscle to swallow... worst it woul not activate the enzymes that comes into play when you need to digest something you just ate.
  
• Sleep-Wake Cycle Regulation - when you're in a coma, your hypothalamus has ceased to properly function, yet if you wake up from a long lasting coma this means that the hypothalamus has created hormone to fix itself.
  

The very first time I've got interested in biology and psychology to the point of studying it just for the sake of knowing was through a series of very educational cartoons called "Once upon a time - Il etait une fois" those were the greatest non biased cartoons created to educates children in my time and yes I'm from the 80's

That is also from that cartoon that a light started to brighten my thoughts about religion and I started questionning way beyond what church, priest and grand-parents would tell me about that god of theirs that someone controls everything... yet in school you are told that your brain is the control center. Who's right?

So yes love is a beautiful thing, I agree, but let's not simplify it! The bible and other religious books do not have answers to everything, and honestly one have to be very blind not to see that SINS was man's made. If I do something wrong, it's certainly not the bible who've told me it was wrong. It's what my brain that has gathered through the years which alows me to perceive what is wrong versus right and that's for me indeed.

Ask few question to a schizopherenic and you'll find out soon enough that the voices telling him wrong doing are not coming externally... it all happens in its head.

[Uneunsae]

MikeW, have you taken up permanent residence in my brain?

[MikeW]

Continued…

We are complex beings in a multi-dimensional complex universe. We are so complicated and the universe is so complicated that we can not understand it by linear sequential thought alone. Something more is needed. The words we have for it are: Grace, Awakening, Enlightenment. These are the true realms of 'heaven'. Without them what have we? We have sensation (the good, the desirable and beautiful, the bad and ugly, the painful and so on). We have perception (the meaning we make of our sensations). We have thought, which may be rational or not. We have emotion, which adds color to our thought. We may even have love, which can be love of self, love of other, perhaps love of some elevated perception or love without an 'object' at all.

Through Christianity we are given the idea that 'God' is 'Love'. We don't know what this means, perhaps only what (if anything) it means to us. But, clearly, Love in this sense is the beginning of Grace; and Grace may be the beginning of Awakening; and perhaps Awakening can lead us to Enlightenment. But words such as these may or may not have any "meaning" for us at all and, in any case, whatever meaning they may have is limited by our own experience, by our own understanding.

What I'm trying to say in this extremely long rant is that any conversation about 'higher orders of meaning and truth' can very easily falter on the limits of our own understanding. If God is God then this God must be conscious and the consciousness of this God must be far, far greater than our ability to even imagine--given the complexity not only of the manifest universe our sciences describe to us but the equally, perhaps infinitely more complex, nature of the realms of experience, mind and meaning--the realms of philosophy, metaphysics, and, perhaps, for lack of a better world 'the spiritual'.

I believe we always need to keep in mind some sense of the great scope of it all so that we can get at least a bit of a sense of our 'place' in it. On one hand, the immensity of the physical universe reduces us to a 'non-entitity'. Our lives are not even a blink of the eye compared to the age of the planet we're on, which itself is nothing compared to the age of our galaxy and the universe of which it is a part. In this scale of things we don't even exist!

But, on the other hand, from the perspective of *experience* of *that by which BEING comes into the world* in 'the realm of the mind' and 'consciousness'--OUR position is central, key, of profound significance. For what would it be to have a universe, even multiple universes, if there were no minds to apprehend it, no meanings to be derived within it?

Personally I've come to the realization (seldom actualized, unfortunately as I, like you, am only human and have my human limitations) that EVERY MOMENT OF EXPERIENCE IS ETERNAL. What I mean by that is not obvious because we are so certain that time is passing: That what was *is* no more and that what is not yet is *only a probability*. About the latter I'm less certain but about the former I'm quite convinced that anything that is ever experienced by any conscious entity anywhere in the universe is, by the very fact that it is experienced, elevated beyond 'probable' to 'actual' and THUS can not NOT BE. By the act of writing these words I've brought into being something that will forever be. The act of reading these words and trying to understand them has created something that will never fade. Of course, I will move on, you will move on; in no time at all we'll be consumed by our daily activities--which we all take for granted as being 'just so' more or less and of mostly 'no consequence' whatever. But it isn't quite so.

If we truly 'understood' the full scope of our existence and all that goes on inside us and how important what we think, feel and do IS… everything, truly everything, would suddenly be different. I believe this is what "enlightenment" means (I don't claim to know for sure). I believe this word represents the fully formed awareness that every action has consequences that never, ever, go away. We are in a world of 'spiraling consequences'; our very existence is made up of them.

In this light each of you is another me and this is as true of my relationship to my fellow humans as it is my relationship to all living things. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you," is not just a 'golden rule' IT IS THE ACTUALITY, THE TRUTH OF WHAT IS GOING ON. Every time you hurt anyone, you have hurt yourself because they are 'you'. They may have a different body, a different ego, a different 'mind'… they may hate you and see you as totally 'other' than themselves (as we are all prone to do). But the fundamental truth is THAT is the illusion!

Hell, then, is this realm of separation. As has been written, it is a spiral of levels of awareness and meaning (or lack there-of):



It is our inability to find the grace of love leading to awakening and enlightenment manifest in all the trivial and significant things we do and do not do in the world of human kind. It is our loss of hope. It is our attachment to pleasure (and pain as pleasure). It is our sense of identity separate from all that is, the nothingness Sartre spoke of. It is in our hearts if we have no love and in our minds if we have no insight. It can become our very identity.

Heaven, on the other hand, is hope and desire for the ineffable and inexplicable--that which lies beyond the limits of what we call 'ourselves'; the realization that TRUTH is not in words or thoughts or even experiences but in BEING--without limits or boundaries--infinite in all directions.

SO, there you have it; the Cosmos According to MikeW :eek: :redface:

End.