Finally Hit The Wall...Need Help!

[East]

I feel like you've told me a bit of this story before at JUB. Wow, she really is a bitch!

Yeah...I think I did tell you about her...I think it was when we were discussing that other bitch you had to deal with. I am soooooooooooooooooooooooooo happy that you took care of it so quickly....maybe I can figure out a way to deal with mine now even though the circumstances are different.

...and yes...you are right...she is a bitch...a bad one.

[Virge]

And to follow up from the other perspective.

memechose, on another thread, stated he likes to look at the story from the other side. So, I am borrowing his style.

What is your gain in all of this?
Do you view yourself as a hero?
Do you want to solve everyone's problems?

Have you thought of these questions and acknowledged the answers, even if you don't like the answer?

Its tough to admit being a hero. But wow, does it ever cause a release - simply knowing why you do something is a great source of mental freedom.

Jeeeeeeeez..
I'm quoted, unwittingly implicated and put on the hot seat all at once... and who thinks I'm going to be mad about anything you guys say? LOL.

East, this is a truly enlightening subject for me because up until now I thought it was just me that had a problem with these types people. This thread is going in my permanent bookmarks for future reference. It relates to many other things I'm trying to comprehend --- and my own personal crusade to be a long range positive influence on people even when I have to resort short term negative means to achieve it. It's the outcome that's important, not the method.

I've never seen all this spelled out in detail so I'm dazed with it. BUT I can spot people like them like I have some sort of doppler radar that senses them out. When someone (always a pretty new person to me) starts directly trying to play me for emotional responses favorable to them I have alarms going off in my head. That's when you see me reply to an OP that I "don't generally try to give advice on just one side of a story" .... In real life I can have lots more fun with responses...

Like the night a newcomer in our circle started in trying to "recruit" everyone to take his side in an issue with his girlfriend (who was absent) over her two cats and a dog that he thought should all be put down... the dumass was so busy talking he didn't notice I picked up his drink, poured it out and put his coat on the doorknob. Everyone else did. He wasn't going to sit in MY house, drinking MY liquor and talk like that about anyone's dogs cats or kids and folks know that. To me that's just real bad manners.... and unbalanced and I don't try to analyze it any further. Anytime I hear someone putting someone down in front of others I automatically sympathize with the absent victim and do my best not to make a scene about it. around my friends that act has become an inside joke. If an argument over something seems to be getting really heated you can bet some smart ass will run to the foyer and yell back, "it's okay guys! No coats are on the doorknob!"

Almost all my straight buddies, including my room mate have gotten involved with girls like this.... and talk about causing tension! It's always like everyone is waiting for me to snap her neck when she starts with her game when one of them comes over. Last time that happened I let her run with it as long as I could and said something like "keep it up and before this night is over I promise you'll want to add me on your list of most hated people."

Now about using negative means to achieve a positive outcome....
If a friend of mine is involved with someone like the description given here... I WILL intentionally piss off the freak and suffer a strained relation with my friend until he or she sees the light and breaks the relationship off. Mission accomplished. To me that's a no brainer.

Just last night I saw a perfect analogy for how I treat them on Walking Dead. Some jerk accused Darryl of stealing half a rabbit. When Darryl's bag was dumped sure enough the half of a rabbit was in it. The gang leader stepped in to mediate and sided with Darryl and sicked his men on the jerk who accused darryl and were kicking him to death. Then the leader told darryl "I saw him stick the rabbit in your bag."
Darryl asked, "why didn't you stop him?"
The guy answered, "he wanted to play it out that way, so I let him."

I'll always give them enough rope to hag themselves jerking people around and I'll play like I don't see any of it until the freak starts pitting friends against friends. Then I throw out the scorecard I've kept on their games and give a hands free smack down.--- another negative means of achieving something positive because once they see what they're doing wrong I hope they'll change.

I don't know about you guys, but the people I've found to be worst about this are gay teenagers and women who don't practice birth control. For some reason most of the guys I hang out with are too dumb, easy going and trusting to even think about playing games like this. That's probably why i like hanging out with them.

I'll stop before I go off into some other subjects that in my mind are tied to this. But it does all give me an idea for another virgilated thread.

[50Plus]

Seeing the discussions back and forth and sideways is enlightening. I do admit to not having the best social skills and therefore do come across as harsh.

I do appreciate that there is the strain and stress of # 1 continuing the relationships and # 2 attempting to end the relationships. Its normal for us to focus on those two options. Something that we have been doing at my work for the past few years is focusing on option # 3.

Option # 3 is viewing your life AFTER the strain and stress is gone. It sure helps to get our attention on the long term and what really matters.

I do feel for ya East. Good luck with it.

[darren23a]

Honestly, you kind of sound like you see yourself as a victim yourself. If you genuinely don't want these people in your life then cut them out of it. I don't even see it as an issue. Just walk away and stop contact. Either you live for the drama or you don't.

[Beaux]

Thanks guys...I will get back to a lot of the things I want to say or respond to but first...I think I have gotten something wrong...

When I read about Jake's triangle...THIS is an exact description of them....I would have thought victim was the right description but this one nailed them...like scary nailed them both...

Persecutors love the power of moving people around on the chess board of life. Brad Pitt in Fight Club is an extreme example of this. Everything is win or lose, with very little ability to be a part of a team. There is a desperate need to be right at all costs and you can end up doubting yourself even about the facts of what happens.

Playing in this triangle of manipulation ultimately leads to a very boring life. Over and over again the game is repeated, and there are never any solutions. Nobody grows as all the players are very stuck in the cycle of repeating their tired roles, all for empty drama.

1.The Constant Victim – No matter what happens, with many twists and turns, this emotional manipulator becomes the victim. They love to triangulate.
2.One-Upmanship Expert – With skillful manipulation, like put downs, this person always needs to gain the high ground with others.
3.Powerful Dependents – Dependents who hide behind the guise of being weak & powerless, but gain considerable power through helplessness, in the lives of those they are dependent upon. Their hidden message is “Don’t let me down.”
4.Triangulators – “You are so special. I’m so happy you’re on my side. Let me tell you what these terrible people are doing to me! Plus they are saying very nasty things about you too!” They turn people against each other.
5.The Blasters – It is not uncommon for teens to be blasters. Hopefully, they grow out of it. The goal for blasters is to not be confronted on any issues. They blast you with anger & side issues to throw you off topic. It’s a good technique to hide secrets.
6.The Projector – A projector denies they have any dysfunctional issues and only see their own issues in other people, which is very convenient. You are manipulative, not them.
7.The Intentional Mis-Interpreter – They intentionally misinterpret information to feed you bad information about others & themselves. Or they feed other people bad information about you. They appear friendly & trustworthy.
8.The Flirt – “Look at me! Be attracted to me! I have plans for you!” They use flirting to get what they want. They need to be preferred & admired.
9.The Iron Fist – Intimidates & demands that you give me what I want! They scorch & burn & may become physical.
10.The Multiple Offender – Uses a blend of these techniques.

Ten Ways to Recognize Emotional Manipulators
Also with permission from Dr. Jim Fogarty
1.Emotional manipulators often begin by being charming, but they are never really accessible.
2.Too early in the relationship, your every need seems to be filled.
3.They lie by exaggeration, distorting the truth & by omission.
4.You notice that you end up apologizing a lot!
5.The manipulator persuades you to do things you would not normally do.
6.You constantly have second class status & your opinion is never really good enough.
7.The manipulator has huge reactions that are way too big over small irritations.
8.Manipulators promise a lovely future that never materializes.
9.The manipulator is successful when they give only vague indications that something is bothering them & you jump to fix it for them.
10.Problems are never the manipulators fault, they never take responsibility & are always quick to blame you

Oh yeah...I am the "Rescuer" and while I agree with what was written..I think it is more complex....like they are missing a chunk.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Sociopaths who, under the guise of looking for "help", are actually looking for affirmation that all of their problems are not their fault but the fault of others.
These people CANNOT be helped. Let them go without feeling guilt or remorse, as nothing you say or do can help them.
You are too good a person to be used in such a manner!
XOXOXO,
Beau

[East]

Honestly, you kind of sound like you see yourself as a victim yourself. If you genuinely don't want these people in your life then cut them out of it. I don't even see it as an issue. Just walk away and stop contact. Either you live for the drama or you don't.

Well...you are right about most of it....

I definitely have put myself in the victim role and I definitely contribute to the drama. The problem is...I might not want them out of my life as much as I want them to change...and that ain't happening.

The price of walking away is more than I want to pay. It is far more complicated than I wrote here. I need to do it in a manner in which I can minimize my losses.

[East]

Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Sociopaths who, under the guise of looking for "help", are actually looking for affirmation that all of their problems are not their fault but the fault of others.
These people CANNOT be helped. Let them go without feeling guilt or remorse, as nothing you say or do can help them.
You are too good a person to be used in such a manner!
XOXOXO,
Beau

Yeah...since I wrote this thread...I have realized that I need to find a good "fast track" therapist who can get right to the core of the matter ...

It is ironic now that I can see it how it is...and I hate it even worse than I did a week ago.

The irony....I have mentioned here many times in the past when giving other people advice how I "divorced" my parents. I have also cringed at the number of people who allow their toxic parents to have a lot of power over them and my advice to them was like the guy above...stop being a victim.....walk away when you realize they are toxic sociopaths.....and it is good advice......

I was proud that I washed my hands of both of them many years ago and felt this was one of my best accomplishments.....I have also subsequently tried to forgive both of them with marginal success but it is harder than it sounds....I won't give up until I do it completely.

Having said that...the irony is that it didn't matter if I let go of both of them because I have recreated them with these two people...almost to perfection.

I was wondering why I can easily walk away from and avoid most people who are like this and why these two have this effect on me. It is actually a good and a bad thing knowing this was intentional on my part.

What I want a therapist to do for me now is to help me figure out why I recreated the fucking family I tried to escape...YIKES...

I am glad Jake showed me that chart...I was reading it and most things described both women and my mom and dad......it is what helped me figure out what I had done...

Wish me luck....I have got to fix this....I can't take too much more of it. I also know now that neither one of them can be helped. It is the reason I divorced my parents.

Hopefully I CAN be helped because the thought occurred to me...if I don't understand this but I do get them both out of my life...I might go out and do it again. That is frightening.

[Borg69]

I was wondering why I can easily walk away from and avoid most people who are like this and why these two have this effect on me. It is actually a good and a bad thing knowing this was intentional on my part.

Subconsciously part of you may long to somehow "fix" your parents by proxy - either for them, or for yourself. It's one thing to say it was in the past and you're over it... but some wounds never fully heal.

[East]

Subconsciously part of you may long to somehow "fix" your parents by proxy - either for them, or for yourself. It's one thing to say it was in the past and you're over it... but some wounds never fully heal.

Yeah...my mom especially pretty much gave me that job from the time I was born. It was my job to fix her....it wasn't really my idea. I wanted another mom.

She was definitely mentally ill. Definitely a sociopath...maybe worse.

I am confident I can heal and overcome this if I work hard enough...I kinda thought I had done it when I washed my hands of the two of them but apparently not....It is very humbling to realize....and kinda embarrassing to me that I did this.

[Borg69]

I catch myself dating guys with some of the same 'problems' my parents had... I'm going to assume it's "human", even if it is annoying.